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Old April 20, 2012, 10:36 AM   #1
Bartholomew Roberts
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Nashville Man Defends Against Apartment Invasion with AR15

The original story can be found here:
http://www.newschannel5.com/story/17...s-self-defense
(Second Link: http://www.wsmv.com/story/17551512/s...orth-nashville)

Google Maps link to shooting location:
http://g.co/maps/cpm33

Short version: Knock at the door at around 11pm. Man goes to answer it and sees that someone is covering the peephole. Concerned, he gets his AR15 and tells his girlfriend to call police. Upon seeing the peephole uncovered, he opens the door and a man wearing a mask, gloves and armed with a pistol charges in, pushing the homeowner into the wall. Homeowner opens fire, killing intruder and second intruder who was waiting outside flees instead of entering.

After removing the mask, the girlfriend recognizes the home invader who she apparently knew through friends and who had somehow become aware that her boyfriend was a firearms enthusiast. The attacker had been convicted of 7 felony drug counts in November; but was out on probation.

I thought this story would make for good discussion in Tactics and Training because I think there are several places this could have been handled better.

1. Better information security would have prevented the couple from being targeted to begin with. They were targeted (according to the news story anyway) because they had things of value (firearms) and the attacker knew that through a friend/acquaintance relationship with the girlfriend. Once you give someone information, that information is out of your control.

2. The homeowner OPENED THE DOOR to a man who was blocking the peephole. The story says he opened the door after the peephole was unblocked though why you would open the door to a man who was wearing a mask and gloves and carrying a pistol puzzles me. This seems like a really poor tactical choice; but I'm glad it worked out for the homeowner despite that.

3. Once again, we see a second intruder waiting in the wings unknown to the homeowner. Luckily, the second intruder once again ran like hell when the gunfire started. I hope we are all that lucky; but planning to be lucky isn't much of a plan.

4. AR15 used in self-defense in an apartment setting. No neighbors ventilated. Bad guy stopped promptly. No charges against the homeowner.
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Old April 20, 2012, 10:51 AM   #2
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Yes, I have been thinking a lot recently about confidentiality as it relates to firearms. I don’t feel like I have to keep it a total secret from everyone, but I also see no reason to discuss it with every person I meet.

Recently I had my alarm system upgraded and they sent out a guy to do an overall security audit. Now, obviously he was there to sell me a security system, but as an off-duty Police Officer he had a lot of good observation. One thing he pointed out that I had never thought about was firearms related magazines and books. He said that when I have various people out like the exterminator I should put these items out of site. He also said he recommends disposing of unwanted magazine, catalogues and related items in the general trash as opposed to the recycle bin.
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Last edited by BarryLee; April 20, 2012 at 11:59 AM.
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Old April 20, 2012, 11:42 AM   #3
kraigwy
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It's too easy to Monday Morning Quarterback any situation. We don't know the whole story, we jump to conclusions.

As to peep holes, be honest, how many times have we gone to someone's (we know) house and fingered the keyhole? I have, not smart but its something we do, college kids are good at this. So are family members.

It's not really hard to figure out when some one is a gun lover. The way we shop, the time we spend at the ranges. Kids/grandkids telling their friends...the list is endless.

I have nothing to hide. Just an example, one time I called an appliance repair man. In giving directions to my house, he ask where I lived in relation to the guy who sets on his back porch and shoots all day.......that be me.

In this case, the guy did what he had to do with the tools available. Setting around at night with a girl friend, guys don't normally think of home invasions.

Every thing worked to his benifit and with out being there, and knowing a lot more info, I'll not condemn him in the least.

Sure we can all think, after reading this, how we could have done thing's different, IF WE WERE EXPECTIING A HOME INVASION.

One thing he could have done, was take his girlfriend to a movie and let the insurance company cover the loss. One thing is to have a rubber door stopper to keep the door from being openned enough for someone to enter.

Lots of things looking back, but this guy was thinking (I'm sure) more about entertaining the girl friend.
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Old April 20, 2012, 11:47 AM   #4
Pond, James Pond
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Without wishing to sound flippant... fit more peepholes.

Fit two more a foot apart and a foot below the main one.

Put one in the door frame or something like that.

If they are covering all of them, then perhaps they are not prankster friends.
If other peepholes are less evident, any ne'er-do-goods may not even noice them as they try to cover the one in the door....

A thought...
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Old April 20, 2012, 12:18 PM   #5
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Without being flippant, one peep hole is sufficient. If it is being covered, don't open the door.
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old April 20, 2012, 12:51 PM   #6
Bartholomew Roberts
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And if the one or two peephole thing is too confusing for you, here is an alternate decision making strategy - if you don't feel it is safe to open the door without an AR15, don't open the door.
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Old April 20, 2012, 01:11 PM   #7
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I've got to admit, if someone covers the peephole in my door, to me they just don't want to come in right now and want to hang out on the porch. My house actually has two side windows about 4 inches wide (but VERY far away from being able to reach in and open the door). If I can't see them (and if you hug my front door, then I can't see you) I'll simply ask who is it. If they don't answer, then they don't really want me to open the door.
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Old April 20, 2012, 01:20 PM   #8
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There was a whole thread on having better doors, doors that can be securely opened partway and use of camera systems.

This was for a guy who had a wife that had a bad habit of opening the door to whoever knocked IIRC...

I'll try to find the thread, a lot of good info in that thread.
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Old April 20, 2012, 01:23 PM   #9
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Here it is

A lot of good info in this thread:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ighlight=chain
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Old April 20, 2012, 01:37 PM   #10
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I don't know exactly how it went down, but we know that opening doors with long guns can be tricky.

I sort of think that if someone was able to barge in, they would have been "toe to toe" with the home owner, would have knocked him back/knocked him over, or at least gotten a good opportunity to grab the long gun.

There certainly is a discussion about the decision to open the door - getting visibility to the outside etc... But I'm thinking that, if you are going to open a door, a long gun is not a good choice when doing that.

Either that or you just turn the door knob and immediately jump back with your long gun leveled at the people who just knocked...
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Old April 20, 2012, 01:41 PM   #11
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Quote:
if you don't feel it is safe to open the door without an AR15, don't open the door.
ya - I have to wonder about this..

"You call the police, I'll get my AR !"

"OK, you called the cops. I've got a full mag of NATO 5.56... alright, lets open the door."
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Old April 20, 2012, 01:44 PM   #12
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1. As Kraigwy said sometimes people finger or thumb the peephole as a joke.

2. Not opening the door is an option but that doesn't always stop the attack if there is one coming.

3. This whole idea of "once again we see a second intruder..." yes we know there's usually a second and we know there's possible a third or more too. The thing is that unless the other(s) waiting in the wing has balls of steel or are beholden to get in and finish the job they're not going to stick around once the gunfire erupts. If they do I hope you DO have an AR-15 with a fully loaded 30rd mag.

4. Kudos to him that he had the sense of mind to do what he did (the home owner that is). He could have been like a lot of single guys out there who would have been thinking with their other head... and things could have turned out a lot worse.

5. An AR is NOT a bad weapon for home defense even in an apartment setting. Once again it all has to do with what you load it with and how you use it. He could have been shooting a Glock 17 and any missed shots would have easily penetrated the next apartment's walls and perforated some unwitting neighbor - just as easily as a 55gr SP .223 from an AR could have.
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Old April 20, 2012, 02:01 PM   #13
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Long Guns Rule!

I'm saying the pistol grip on the AR, or any shotgun or AK for that matter, really helps keep the long gun in play. Plus a huge lethality plus up over a pistol. Allow me to paraphrase, "When a man with a pistol meets a man with a rifle, the man with the pistol is a dead man!"
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Old April 20, 2012, 02:03 PM   #14
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^ He got taken to the wall.

If you're in that spot, it's way more difficult to bring a long gun to bear than a pistol.

I'm not saying a long gun is an inferior HD weapon, my actual opinion is that a 18" auto-loading shotgun is a great HD weapon in most HD circumstances.

One of the circumstances I don't think long guns are so great in is opening doors.
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Old April 20, 2012, 02:05 PM   #15
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If all I had was a rifle or a carbine, I'd stand back from the entrance a good ways and have my girlfriend open the door
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Old April 20, 2012, 02:13 PM   #16
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My 9 y/o son shares my enthusiasm for firearms.
He has been instructed not to discuss our weapons with anyone.
Silence is golden!

Glad that the homeowner survived, and was not charged!
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Old April 20, 2012, 03:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
"OK, you called the cops. I've got a full mag of NATO 5.56... alright, lets open the door."
Some people seem to relish the idea of having a firefight at their front door. I figure they must still be children. Perhaps they spent a lot of money on a firearm and are looking for an opportunity to justify that expense and prove they are the better warrior. Perhaps.

Going to the door and looking through the peephole strikes me as a wise move. Opening the door after it was determined that whoever, unknown number, had blocked vision of themselves strikes me as foolish at best. Especially after noting that the potential victim was uncomfortable enough with the situation tyo arm himself with his AR.

Ego reactions will get you killed.
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Old April 21, 2012, 02:54 AM   #18
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Seems like the guy needs a different girlfriend...
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Old April 21, 2012, 07:56 AM   #19
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I was thinking the same thing about the girlfriend. If she is hanging out with people that would pull and armed home invasion or know people like this I think I would look for a replacement girlfriend.

I also wouldn't open the door. I would stand out of the way of the door. Some one this bad would think nothing of firing a few rounds into the door.

Stand clear of the door.
Call the cop's
If they kick the door down shoot them.
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Old April 21, 2012, 10:23 AM   #20
Strafer Gott
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Ask our guys about house clearing.

My sense is that the pistolero lacked commitment. Seems he had bitten off more than he could chew. Probably unsuited to murder. Hitting people with
a weapons stash takes training and confidence. Not to mention courage!
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Old April 21, 2012, 11:53 AM   #21
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She actually knew the perp. This bad economy is bringing out the worst in people. Perhaps the moral of this story is that its time to weed out the questionable friends. Only rock solid friends continue to be invited over and those friends get the talk. The GF too if she can't keep a cork in it.

He stopped them at the door though! You have to give him that, even with all the mistakes he made. I'm not sure why one would answer the door with a rifle, but things were happening fast for him so I'll just say huh, glad it worked out for him.

Now I am thinking about my friends and wondering who should get cut.
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Old April 21, 2012, 02:40 PM   #22
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Quote:
2. The homeowner OPENED THE DOOR to a man who was blocking the peephole. The story says he opened the door after the peephole was unblocked though why you would open the door to a man who was wearing a mask and gloves and carrying a pistol puzzles me. This seems like a really poor tactical choice; but I'm glad it worked out for the homeowner despite that.
So you are going with certain information as factual for disucssion and throwing out other information and replacing it with what you think happened because you don't believe it? I can understand your disbelief of specific facts, but replacing the information with facts you make up to suit the story doesn't seem to offer any better reliability.

Quote:
And if the one or two peephole thing is too confusing for you, here is an alternate decision making strategy - if you don't feel it is safe to open the door without an AR15, don't open the door.
Hmm, I don't really feel that it is a good idea to open the door to an unknown person without a firearm, so I should never open the door? Or is it that the standard is that it is okay to open the door if all I think is sufficient is a pistol, but if I think I need the AR15, then I should not open it?

We even answer the door armed when we can see someone we know on the porch.

Quote:
"When a man with a pistol meets a man with a rifle, the man with the pistol is a dead man!"
Cute saying, but not a truism and certainly not the absolute it is made out to be.
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Old April 21, 2012, 03:08 PM   #23
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BarryLee makes a good point about gun magazines lying in your recycle bin where they can be seen by passersby ... here's a better idea than putting them in with the fish heads and dog food cans ... cut off the subscription address label and donate them to your local library ... I volunteer at our library; we have a few shelves for donated magazines, where anybody can just come in and take them ... a good way to help your neighbors and perhaps pass our love and respect for firearms on to somebody who might not have been exposed to shooting as a hobby, sport and means of self-defense ...
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Old April 21, 2012, 03:19 PM   #24
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DNS, your point. I'm missing it.
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Old April 22, 2012, 06:34 PM   #25
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Home defender could have simply done a callout.

As in: "Who the hell is it and what do you want!" Delivered from a more advantageous interior position.

People seem to have an ingrained "need" to open their doors for improved situational awareness. Probably reinforced from a lifetime habit of doing exactly that for minor things. A mindless, conditioned reflex.

A habit to train yourself (and loved ones) out of.
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