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Old April 27, 2012, 12:52 AM   #1
austinr09
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when to pull?

just wondering what situation you would have to be in to actually pull your gun on somebody? If someone comes up to you and says give me your wallet or ill beat you up do you pull your gun or try to avoid a fight giving them the wallet? i guess what im asking is at what point are you prepared to use deadly force? does the bad guy have to have a weapon or not?

Last edited by Frank Ettin; April 27, 2012 at 10:29 AM. Reason: language
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Old April 27, 2012, 01:02 AM   #2
Gunnut17
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Once I read a book with a chapter pretty much devoted to this, it said that the guy mugging you is probably more experienced(supposing they were careered criminals) and that is was best to not try to shoot.

It said that a good way to get them off your back was to keep a "mugger wallet", with enough money to satisfy the guy.

Or there is the option of being trained in like, 5 martial arts and kicking the crap out of them.
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Old April 27, 2012, 01:08 AM   #3
austinr09
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I was putting deep thought into this today and talking with a coworker who has his ccw as well. we both couldnt decide whether it was best to let them have said wallet/watch/cell phone or actually pull the gun hoping they turn and run. im not sure I would feel too great later on if i ended someones life over some money in a wallet. obviously if the BG has a weapon its a different story but lets just assume he hasnt presented a weapon.
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Old April 27, 2012, 02:16 AM   #4
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I pull when I've decided there is no other way to deescelate the situation. And I don't pull to show the pistol, I don't say, "I have a gun", I don't point it at you and tell you to put your hands up. If I pull my pistol, I pull the trigger, all other options have been removed from the table.
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Old April 27, 2012, 02:54 AM   #5
ChaseReynolds
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I would only pull if I plan on pulling the trigger. The last thing I want is for some robber to remember that I am carrying and just shoot me from behind and rob me when I am dead.
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Old April 27, 2012, 03:58 AM   #6
dab102999
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Had a ccw years ago and presently am getting another. Always told myself that in any situation children and wife stay behind me, give them what they want, run if needed, and only draw to fire, and only fire when no other option. Possestions r just that. My life aint worth loosin over anything. And dont think i want to take a life over a cell phone or wallet. But if a weapon is drawn that is a different story. Then he will be taking the chance that i am better and faster. And if my wife is with me he will have another gun to deal with also.
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Old April 27, 2012, 06:38 AM   #7
TexasJustice7
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If they run off with my TV set from my home, I would not draw and fire, unless I caught them breaking into my home where I would stop them, if I were inside.

If they want my wallet, unless they have the drop on me, I would draw.
Whether I fire or not, is up to them. It depends on what price they are willing to pay to take the wallet. If I am not prepared to protect my person,
my wallet, my life and my family, then I would never have bothered to
obtain a CHL nor would I bother to carry a handgun. But of course some places handguns are not allowed except for police and for criminals.
I prefer living in Texas where I have the right to defend myself and my property. That being said, I won't attempt to outdraw someone who has the drop on me.
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Old April 27, 2012, 06:56 AM   #8
TexasJustice7
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Quote:
gunnut17: It said that a good way to get them off your back was to keep a "mugger wallet", with enough money to satisfy the guy.

Or there is the option of being trained in like, 5 martial arts and kicking the crap out of them
Some of us old men are not in shape and too old to defend using martial arts. The mugger wallet might be a good idea, but I have room for only one wallet. I carry both my money, my dl, my permit, my debit/credit cards, as well as my disabled daughter's texas benefit card. I cannot lawfully allow someone else to use her card, so unless they have the drop on me the price for taking it will be higher than they will want to pay, whether they are armed or not.
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Old April 27, 2012, 10:41 AM   #9
OldMarksman
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Quote:
Posted by austinr09: just wondering what situation you would have to be in to actually pull your gun on somebody?
In most jurisdictions, one may not lawfully "pull a gun on somebody" unless the use of deadly force is justified.

There are some exceptions. In Minnesota and Texas, a firearm may be displayed under circumstances in which force is justified.

Quote:
If someone comes up to you and says give me your wallet or ill kick your @$$ do you pull your gun or try to avoid a fight giving them the wallet? i guess what im asking is at what point are you prepared to use deadly force? does the bad guy have to have a weapon or not?
Justification requires immediate necessity, and immediate necessity only exists in the event of an imminent threat by someone reasonably thought to have or exhibit (among other things) the ability to inflict death or serious bodily harm.

That ability can either involve a weapon or something known as a disparity of force. The latter include the following:
  • Male ttacker, female victim
  • Large attacker, much smaller victim
  • Infirm defender, fit attacker
  • Attacker with superior martial arts skills known to the defender
  • Disparity of numbers

Those conditions do not "provide permission" for the use of deadly force; they simply help support a defense of justification.

It's often an uphill fight.

Giving up your wallet is almost always going to be the less costly option by far, but do not let your guard down when doing it.
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Old April 27, 2012, 10:52 AM   #10
totaldla
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Always know the laws of your state. Use of force varies.

In my state, if I pull my weapon then somebody is going to die, or I'm putting it back in the safe. I'm not in the cop business and I don't have to arrest anybody.

In my opinion, never pull your gun as a warning as it is a great way to get killed.
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Old April 27, 2012, 11:06 AM   #11
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I would modify that post, totaldla, in at least a couple ways.

First, I wouldn't say "somebody is going to die." That could be taken as premeditation to kill. I would say something more on the lines of "I would only draw my weapon if I were prepared to use it, and if I have to use it, I will shoot to stop."

I also wouldn't say a gun can't be used as a warning; there are times when that is legally and morally appropriate. The danger is in assuming that the warning will be all that is needed, or in drawing without being willing and ready to actually employ the weapon should that become necessary.

Bear in mind that statistics indicate 90% or so of defensive gun uses will end with no shots fired; the great majority of cases would not legally or morally justify shooting if the BG ceases his immediate threat, and so a mindset of "I will shoot if I draw" could cause serious problems in around 90% of cases.

That still means there are around 10% odds that if one draws, one will have to fire.
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Old April 27, 2012, 11:28 AM   #12
mete
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Pull the gun immediately ,tell him to back off, then immediately call Cops.
Things can happen very quickly and as long as your gun is holstered you give him an advantage.
Think how many times you have heard of a case where a person gives up his wallet then is murdered ! Do you want to take the chance? Remember more and more BGs are on drugs with violent irrational behavior..
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Old April 27, 2012, 12:45 PM   #13
OldMarksman
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Quote:
Posted by Mleake: I would say something more on the lines of "I would only draw my weapon if I were prepared to use it, and if I have to use it, I will shoot to stop."
I would put it this way: "I would only draw my weapon if it were lawful to do so and if I were prepared to use it; if I have to use it, I will shoot to stop."

Quote:
I also wouldn't say a gun can't be used as a warning; there are times when that is legally and morally appropriate.
In a couple of states a gun may be drawn if force is justified; one other state (Arizona) has a provision for the "defensive display of a weapon."

Quote:
The danger is in assuming that the warning will be all that is needed, or in drawing without being willing and ready to actually employ the weapon should that become necessary.
Yes indeed.

Quote:
Bear in mind that statistics indicate 90% or so of defensive gun uses will end with no shots fired; the great majority of cases would not legally or morally justify shooting if the BG ceases his immediate threat, and so a mindset of "I will shoot if I draw" could cause serious problems in around 90% of cases.
Well put.
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Old April 27, 2012, 01:11 PM   #14
TexasJustice7
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Quote:
OldMarksman: I would put it this way: "I would only draw my weapon if it were lawful to do so and if I were prepared to use it; if I have to use it, I will shoot to stop."
Thats for sure, because if you pull the weapon you best be prepared to use it, because some of the BG's are high on dope in some cases. So it best not be a bluff. And "if it is lawful to do so", thats the rub. One best know the laws of the state your in. In texas one may use it on a felon or thief when
a felony is committed at night, to prevent their escape. While in another state, that same person who draws the weapon will face prison time.

And even in States like Texas if you shoot an unarmed intruder in your home, you are not allowed to keep shooting him repeatedly once he is no longer a threat. But you are not required to allow him a shot at disarming you in a fist fight before using deadly force.

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Old April 27, 2012, 01:55 PM   #15
Frank Ettin
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Remember that if you use your gun, even if it is ultimately determined that you were legally justified, you will find yourself involved with the criminal justice system. That is never an easy thing. Depending on the circumstances and how clear your justification was, the experience will run any where from "pretty annoying" to "extremely annoying and expensive" to "horribly stressful, life changing and ruinously expensive."

If you need to use your gun to prevent immediate, otherwise unavoidable death or grave bodily harm to yourself or a loved one, you will have no choice. You will need to act and act decisively. But avoidance is preferable.

Intentional violence against another human (which is what the use of force in self defense is) is not taken lightly by our legal system. Nor should we take it lightly.
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Old April 27, 2012, 09:17 PM   #16
relaxing
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Great discussion. I just in fact got my CCW, completed a pistol class, even though I thought I might be ok, its been years since I have been interested in arms and shooting and did not think myself safe to carry.

Just today I was thinking of such a scenario, although in my minds role play I tried to work through what I would do if someone threaten me with a lesser lethal force during a hold up than firearms, ie. maybe a BG pulled a knife. I don't think I would pull my firearm even with that before throwing my wallet to the ground below their feet and running as fast as I could while organizing my thoughts about possibly using lethal force.

First the BG has to choose between chasing me or picking up what they would want, the cash. If I gained some distance and the BG went away, no life taken, cancel the charge cards, say bye bye to any cash and all is well. But if the BG then decided to pursue me further... draw, aim and fire.

Of course its all subjective there are so many variables that would be at play.

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Old April 27, 2012, 09:39 PM   #17
Edward429451
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Would it be too succinct to say that when to draw is when they make you?

I've drawn a gun 3 times now. Every time it was not a conscious decision, I just drew because of what was happening. A sudden emergency.
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Old April 27, 2012, 10:34 PM   #18
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This sounds like a when can I pull my gun kinda thing

When in fact it should be more of a what exactly is justifiable use of force kinda thing. The fact is that more knowledgeable men than I have written deaths of articles on this very thing.

Rather than quote them or pretend to speak for them I will refer you to one who has been my source on this exact type of information.

Masaad Ayobe has written a few texts that may help the OP. I have read them and took away some useful knowledge.

http://ayoob.com/cgi-bin/miva?Mercha...gory_Code=AMAB
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Old April 27, 2012, 10:35 PM   #19
relaxing
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Edward, man that is concise and to the point!.
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Old April 28, 2012, 08:56 AM   #20
TheNocturnus
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Push them away, draw and fire. They are committing a felony act against me and I am not sure whether they are going to kill me after they get what they want.

The BG signed his rights away as soon as he threatened me. I have been robbed 3 times before at gunpoint and it is never again going to go down with me giving in and handing my stuff over. Next person that tries to rob me is getting shot at.
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Old April 28, 2012, 09:58 AM   #21
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Quote:
Posted by Nocturnus31: Push them away, draw and fire. They are committing a felony act against me and I am not sure whether they are going to kill me after they get what they want.
What you are not sure about will not go very far at all toward convincing anyone that your belief that deadly force had been immediately necessary to protect yourself against an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm, or to prevent a forcible felony, had been reasonable.

Quote:
The BG signed his rights away as soon as he threatened me.
Not according to the law.

Quote:
Next person that tries to rob me is getting shot at.
Let us hope that, should that happen, you are able to introduce sufficient evidence to support a successful defense of justification.

In a situation in which the evidence available after the fact is ambiguous, your having made that statement could help bring about your conviction.
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Old April 29, 2012, 12:54 AM   #22
briandg
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Quote:
Give me your money or I will physically attack you.
(i draw my gun)

Quote:
"don't make me kill you."
When a person threatens me with physical harm, he has threatened a person whose arthritis and joint problems preclude normal means of self defense.

What are my choices? Giving him the money is irrelevant, because the threat of violence is already there. I don't know if he is a man of honor who will walk off with my wallet and not hurt me. He's a bad guy, so I expect he will be a BIG FAT LIAR.

so, leaving out a whole lot of "what ifs" and arguing, once I genuinely believe I am probably going to be attacked, the weapon comes out. Once that person makes any sort of move that makes me believe that I am about to be attacked and maybe killed or seriously injured,

I WILL SHOOT HIM, AND EVERYBODY IN SIGHT THAT IS WITH HIM THAT PRESENTS THE SAME THREAT.

This isn't a movie, it's not a script, and I'm not james bond. If someone puts my life in danger, I'm not going to bargain with him, argue, threaten, or waste even one second stalling. If I say "put down the knife or I'll shoot you" in about seconds the knife will be on the ground. either he'll drop it, or I'll shoot him.

Then, I will tell the cops that i was in danger, and I did the only thing that was certain to keep me from getting hurt. Hopefully, I will not be prosecuted.

Oh, and if he has a gun? I will most likely shoot him as soon as he points it at me.
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Old April 29, 2012, 01:00 AM   #23
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"reasonable fear", firearms....

In most places, in order to justify applying lethal force(pulling out or firing a loaded firearm), you(the armed citizen) must have a reasonable fear for your safety. If a thug is unarmed or doesn't seem threatening, I'd avoid pulling out a gun. IF the subject or subjects are armed, following or harassing you or you feel you have no ave of escape(way to leave or avoid the situation), then you can be justified in drawing a weapon.

For context, I'd be aware of your surroundings too and know that many "eyewitnesses" or "by-standers" may NOT come to your aid/be honest with responding officers.
You may stumble across some "street crazy" person or bum that a area's residents may side with or defend in a critical incident. It sounds unrealistic but as a armed security officer in urban areas & some low end places, I can tell you that's exactly what occurs.

CF
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Old April 29, 2012, 06:27 AM   #24
TexasJustice7
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Quote:
BrianDg: When a person threatens me with physical harm, he has threatened a person whose arthritis and joint problems preclude normal means of self defense.

This isn't a movie, it's not a script, and I'm not james bond. If someone puts my life in danger, I'm not going to bargain with him, argue, threaten, or waste even one second stalling. If I say "put down the knife or I'll shoot you" in about seconds the knife will be on the ground. either he'll drop it, or I'll shoot him.

Then, I will tell the cops that i was in danger, and I did the only thing that was certain to keep me from getting hurt. Hopefully, I will not be prosecuted.
Regarding your comment, I am very curious as to what state you live in?
I can sympathize with any physical impairment that puts the attacker at an advantage. I have a herniated area in my stomach which if I allowed an attacker to strike me there it would likely kill me, and medically documented.

I agree with your sentiment too, and there are many states that would be a problem for you. Even in Texas your case would likely go before a grand jury which would likely nobill it. Lots of folks don't like our laws in Texas, including the use of deadly force to stop theft at night or a felon from running off with the loot. Even in Texas if the worst happens your gun will be taken while it is investigated, and you will have to spend money for an attorney if it goes to a grand jury and likely will.

In that light I am curious as to what happens while it is being invesitigated, and if it goes before a grandjury. Do you suppose the CHL or CWP you have
might be suspended during till such time as the matter is resolved. I don't think they take all your guns in Texas, but they take the one involved in
the incident. Some of the other states might take them all.

I guess if I ever move to one of the other states like that I would just have to sell my guns which I do not intend to do, but no use having them if one
can't stop any kind of storng armed robbery.

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Old April 29, 2012, 07:05 AM   #25
Manson
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I would like to add two simple but important points to this thread.

Know your state laws.

Be careful what you say on a public media.
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