The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 20, 2014, 06:51 PM   #1
ezmiraldo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2013
Location: land of the free
Posts: 122
in the perfect world, any responsible gun owner should choose to...

...at a minimum do these:

1. get regular marksmanship training and practice

2. learn about one's local SD laws

... and preferably also do these:

3. get simunition training (at least occasionally)

4. get scenario-based training, such as the one discussed in the link below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1q41...ZHNyz28N4Ov7Wg

i've done 1 and 2, working on doing #3 in the next few months, but have no idea how to do #4 without travelling/spending too much... i think we can all see necessity of # 1 and 2, but what do you folks think about usefulness of # 3 and 4 for low-abiding responsible gun and CCW owners?
__________________
--
sig p226
savage 111
ezmiraldo is offline  
Old July 20, 2014, 07:34 PM   #2
TRX
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 24, 2008
Posts: 123
In a perfect world I would have no need to carry a gun for defensive purposes.
TRX is offline  
Old July 20, 2014, 08:05 PM   #3
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,210
Quote:
In a perfect world I would have no need to carry a gun for defensive purposes.
The foundation of this particular subforum of TFL is that self-defense is an unavoidable necessity; questions posed here should be interpreted in that context.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old July 20, 2014, 08:51 PM   #4
HungryHunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 123
I think I would have reversed #3 and #4. I could live the rest of my life just fine without getting shot with anymore sim rounds. I also think #4 and any kind of additional training makes all the difference in the world.

Here's the way I look at it, of course just my opinion. I carry a pistol to save my life if there's literally no other choice. Not because it makes me feel good. I carry a full size pistol. I'm not worried about the extra weight or discomfort. If I have to use it I want to be as lethal as I can be. The same applies to training. It's not always as fun as buying a new gun, but saving the money and paying for the training I think should realistically go to the top of the priority list. I think the ammo and the training should be a financial priority if you CC. If you're a collector, or just like to shoot and own firearms more power to you, I'm on board with that. If you carry to protect your life I don't think people should pick up a new gun until they pick up more training.

There are a lot of great courses out there. We also live in the media age which can be helpful and detrimental. I try to watch videos with instructors with real life credibility not Internet credibility. I really like Magpul videos. I think they're a good way to get some training if you can't afford to get the real deal. There's a lot of great media stuff out there, that was just one that came to my head. Anyway all just my opinions.
HungryHunter is offline  
Old July 20, 2014, 09:05 PM   #5
ezmiraldo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2013
Location: land of the free
Posts: 122
magpul vids are awesome! especially their pistol one - the precision carbine dvd set i didn't care too much for... i agree with tom grisham (among others) who always preach more training. the question i struggle with is: "when do i have enough training to be comfortable as a gun owner". i don't think i've figured out a good answer for it, yet. despite having gone through many high-quality classes (many of which one-on-one tutoring sessions with some of the best instructors), having read dozens of great books, having watched several high-quality dvd courses, i always feel like a newb in bad need of more training.... the more i train, the more i realize how much i don't know.
__________________
--
sig p226
savage 111
ezmiraldo is offline  
Old July 20, 2014, 09:10 PM   #6
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,210
Quote:
I carry a pistol to save my life...
If I have to use it I want to be as lethal as I can be.
There is an interesting divergence between your stated reason for carrying and the goal of your training.

If your goal is to kill people then you would want to be as lethal as you can be. If your goal is, as stated, to save your life, then you should be striving to be as effective at that goal as possible, not striving to achieve some other goal.

Our goals drive our actions and our speech. It is a mistake to fall into the mindset that the goal is killing the attacker because it creates a situation where the defender may take unnecessary risks to kill the attacker when the situation could actually be resolved with less danger to the defender.

Trying to be as lethal as possible may increase the risk of injury or reduce the chances of success. A defender who is fixated on “shooting to kill” could, for example, attempt to shoot at the attacker’s head when the more easily targeted torso shot is available. In practice, headshots are difficult to make and a missed headshot is obviously not nearly as effective at ending a confrontation as a torso hit.

It can also generate a tendency for the defender to take actions that may later call his motives (and therefore the legality of his actions) into question. Remember the defender’s motive/mindset can be an important component of justifying self-defense. Finally, an improper mindset can increase the chances that the defender will make what appear to be self-incriminating comments either before or after the incident.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old July 20, 2014, 09:37 PM   #7
jeager106
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2006
Location: N.E. Oh.
Posts: 380
Well said JohnKSa.
I also taught "aftermath". What should be in place in the rare event
a person does have to shoot another person in self defense.
I was trained in and taught court room survival also.
We tend to pay a lot of attention and invest time in developing good shooting
skills but too little attention to the inevitable aftermath.
__________________
Question everything.
jeager106 is offline  
Old July 20, 2014, 09:46 PM   #8
Jim243
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2009
Posts: 4,351
Interesting, as I see it, 1, 2 & 3 are doable but I have a problem with number 4. In doing IDPA even just for practice instead of score, it is helpful but not really a situation training, you know exactly who you can and can not shoot and where and what the course of fire is.

Most ranges you can practice your skills with your chosen weapon, but the type of training shown in the Nutfancy video is not available to the general public without great expense and travel.

Since every situation that you might encounter in real life will be different than any other situation (place, time, people involved and type of threat). It would behoove us to exercise extreme caution when carrying to get involved unless we are forced into a situation where there is no alternative before drawing. (meaning if you have to draw, you have to shoot, other wise leave the gun in it's holster.)

I guess, it's time to practice my quick draw, over and over and over, that I can do with snap caps. Now to work on my yelling at the top of my lungs. (LOL) I just hope the neighbors don't call the police over it.

Jim
__________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Last edited by Jim243; July 20, 2014 at 09:52 PM.
Jim243 is offline  
Old July 20, 2014, 10:28 PM   #9
HungryHunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 123
Ezmiraldo I love that DVD too. It was a good one to help me set up training drills and try to further my skills without being able to afford to go to as many courses. I'm in the same boat as you. Maybe I'm crazy, call me what you want but I've never once from the military on felt comfortable with my level of training. Every night I think I need more. I don't know if that stops.

JohnKSa Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I completely agree. I will call 911, run hide, yell fire, do whatever it takes to avoid that situation. I simply meant if all options were exhausted, and I do have to draw my weapon I want the training and the weapon to give me every advantage to come out alive. I like to think i would never make the mistake of trying to take an unnecessary head shot.

That little bit being said I definitely agree. I took detainees in Iraq but I still have the unfortunate habit of slipping back into a military mindset designed for a more austere environment. Thank you for your advice and constructive help. I will add that in and always try to bear it in mind.
HungryHunter is offline  
Old July 25, 2014, 08:09 PM   #10
MTT TL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 1,791
I would reorder those priorities to:

2
1
4
3

Simmunition training, while useful is simply for more completely filling out a scenario training. Scenario training is horribly expensive. I imagine you could try to find less qualified people to conduct such training but you get what you pay for.
__________________
Proxima est Mors, Malum Nullum adhibit Misericordiam
MTT TL is offline  
Old July 26, 2014, 12:16 AM   #11
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 1,312
That depends...what is the goal?
If a person ONLY owns a firearm to compete in Olympic Pistol competitions, do they need to do scenario based training, use simunitions, and study local self-defense laws?

Now, many of us own guns for defense as well as sport. For these people, I generally agree with your suggestions.
raimius is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09113 seconds with 9 queries