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Old February 17, 2014, 11:16 PM   #1
leadcounsel
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Please rank your top 5 defensive long-guns for beginner

A recent conversation has caused me to analyze my own theories.

Assume you have a non-gun friend who is interested in a long gun (not a handgun) for home defense. Assume they already have a handgun and want a long gun. Standard, garden variety, affordable long gun that this non-gun friend can be easily trained on, and then set aside to be pulled out in an emergency. Considerations are affordability, ease of use, ergonomics, etc. Again, average citizen, probably not willing to invest a few house payments in the platform and ammo and lots of classes...

This would be purely for defense of an average American home in the event of a true violent emergency. Person is of above average strength, agility, mechanical ability, but not really super interested in guns... just wants to buy something, learn to use it, practice on occasion, and put it aside for the probably-never-need-but-good-to-have in the event of an emergency.

Please rank your top 5 recommendations, with a short explanation if necessary. PLEASE NO ARGUING! And please stay on topic.
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Old February 17, 2014, 11:36 PM   #2
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I prefer a handgun in a home defense/close quarter setting, but if you're set on a long-gun, a 20 gauge pump action with a pistol grip i.e. Mossberg 500 or Rmington 870 variant. Reasoning: without a full shoulder stock the length of this "long-gun" won't be as cumbersome or difficult to wield in a close quarter/home defense scenario. Also, you can find lightly used pump action shotguns for prices that won't break the bank. Manual of arms is relatively simple to learn as well on the 500 and 870. Lastly, shotgun loads are diverse and can be loaded up to the individual's desire...everything from slugs, buckshot, to non-lethal rounds if they wish.
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Old February 17, 2014, 11:41 PM   #3
Deaf Smith
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1. Mini-14.
2. M1 Carbine
3. High Point 9mm Carbine
4. Ruger 10/22.
5. Marline 1894 .357 magnum lever action.

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Old February 17, 2014, 11:51 PM   #4
monkey95
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1: mossberg 500 or remington 870 w/ 6 position stock, slugs or 00 buck

2: ar15, again w/ adjustable stock

3: sxs 12ga, see #1

4: ruger 10/22...or other semi .22 rifle

5: umm sorry handgun

these are what I have available, except the sxs, and I am comfortable having any...ymmv...or theirs
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Old February 18, 2014, 12:03 AM   #5
dakota.potts
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In no particular order:

Hi point 9mm Carbine
M1 Carbine
Mossberg Youth 20 gauge
Semi automatic shotgun - maybe a Saiga in 20 or 12 gauge
S&W MP15-22

Of those, I think the M1 Carbine and Mossberg shotgun have an interesting consideration: If you have to use them in self-defense, they will be easier to defend in court because they don't look like evil rifles. I would have suggested the Mini-14, but I think the noise and flash could be a significant consideration so I wouldn't suggest it for that reason.

There are other good choices but those are ones I would recommend off the top of my head. All loaded with good hollow points or buckshot in the case of a shotgun
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Old February 18, 2014, 01:03 AM   #6
MarkDozier
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Marlin 357 Magnum
Marlin 30-30
Ruger 10/22
Stevens 12 ga
Marlin 45-70
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Old February 18, 2014, 01:31 AM   #7
JimmyR
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HD long guns

1) Remington 870/Mossberg 500 Youth Model 20 ga shotgun- loaded with decent shells, this will serve any HD needs, and is often small enough to not only carry around a home easily, but move around tight hallways. I strongly reccomend a sshoulder stock on a shotgun, making the weapon easier to aim and absorb recoil.

2) Any other shotgun- Any other shotgun makes my #2 spot, because they are ideal for barricading oneself in a safe place- be it a bedroom, bathroom, etc. A 12 ga loaded with buckshot is probably ideal, and for a "barricade" shotgun, a longer barrel might be ideal, giving some separation between the head and the muzzle.

3) Beretta CX4- I personally own a Hi Point, but think the CX4 is probably the best overall PCC due to its compact size, light weight, optic-friendly design for a red dot, and it's ability to accept hi capacity mags. Ideally, this would be in the same caliber as one's pistol.

4) Kel Tec Sub2000- The only reason I put the CX4 ahead of the KTsub2K is the use if optics. The folding design makes this a great concealable long gun for HD use, but negates the ability to use anything but iron sights without shelling out serious cash to modify it. I've also head from a friend that the design of the gun (running the bolt so far back into the stock) makes percieved recoil more noticeable, especially with 40 S&W rounds. I would only reccomend this above the CX4 if one's pistol mags fit the Sub2K.

5) Any other PCC- Most of the PCC's that aren't Kel Tec or Beretta fall into one of two catagories: 1) they don't accept hi cap mags (a la Hi Point) or 2) They tend to be hard to find and cost prohibitive. I personally own a Hi Point 995, and feel comfortable in my ability to put 10 rds of 9mm ammo where I want it at reasonable in home defense distances. I would also include lever action rifles in this catagory chambered in 357 or 44, in the interest of sharing ammo and manuverability.

Honorable Mention) Ruger 10/22- because when loaded with 25rd mags of HP or high velocity RN ammo, even the puny 22 LR will ruin someones day. I believe the necessary technique for this might be adequately summed up as "spray and pray."
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Old February 18, 2014, 02:12 AM   #8
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My top 5:

1) ps90 - compact, 50rds, ambidextrous, no recoil.
2) m1 carbine - relatively compact, low recoil.
3) shotgun of any form
4) pistol caliber carbine
5) AR15
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Old February 18, 2014, 02:15 AM   #9
49willys
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1-12 ga.slug
2-12 ga.000 buck
3-12 ga.0000 buck
4-12 ga.T
5-12 ga.BB
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Old February 18, 2014, 07:45 AM   #10
Mike38
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Mossberg / Remington … etc. pump shotgun in 20 gauge.

Mossberg / Remington … etc. pump shotgun in 12 gauge.

9mm carbine.

.40 carbine

.45acp carbine.

I don’t consider rifle calibers as HD. Rifles are offensive weapons, handguns and shotguns are defensive.
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Old February 18, 2014, 08:44 AM   #11
SamNavy
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Quote:
Considerations are affordability, ease of use, ergonomics,
I think the answer to this question is always... AR15. Build a lightweight model, 14.7" pinned, fixed skeleton stock, Aimpoint Micro (on a quick-disconnect mount), with a fixed front sight and good flip-up rear. Have him get one of those fore-grips with the flashlight/laser combo.

If that's "too much", then may I humbly suggest:
http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/36140-...b2000_5454.jpg

Last edited by Spats McGee; February 18, 2014 at 12:24 PM.
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Old February 18, 2014, 09:38 AM   #12
Beentown71
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SBR'd AR 15

16" AR 15

Pump shotgun

Lever action pistol caliber carbine

Pistol
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Old February 18, 2014, 11:11 AM   #13
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Why all the .22 recommendations?

1. Pump shotgun. Remington or Mossberg. Plenty of the budget off-brand guns work fine, too. 12-gauge if that's feasible, but 16-gauge or 20-gauge aren't bad.

Pros: Inexpensive, easy to find, manual of arms is simple, commonly owned- so a non gun person may still have one if he or she hunts, however infrequently.

Cons: Stiff recoil, limited capacity, slow reloading speed for the inexperienced.

2. Lever rifle in a handgun caliber.

Pros: Higher capacity, lower recoil, inoffensive appearance to the non-gun person who is turned off by the EBR, simple manual of arms. Workmanlike, inexpensive rifles can be had by Rossi and several other companies.

Cons: Like the shotgun, it's reliant on the shooter to cycle the action properly, and the lever action is a little easier to short stroke, I think, particularly if the shooter put a box of ammo through it ten years ago and left it in the closet. Better-quality rifles are very expensive. Reloading the magazine is slower than a shotgun and you can't fast reload through the ejection port.

3. Pistol-caliber carbine.

Pros: Wide range of price points from a $200 Hi-Point carbine or a $350 Kel-Tec carbine to a $1500 9mm AR-type rifle. Light, maneuverable, high capacity, low recoil. Relatively cheap ammunition.

Cons: More complicated manual of arms. Price for the better ones like the Beretta Cx4 or a 9mm Colt AR.

4. Carbine.

Pros: Essentially the same as the pistol-caliber carbine, but more powerful. I would throw both the Ruger Mini rifles and the M1 carbine in this category as less tactifool-looking alternatives to the AR and Kalashnikov patterns.

If a non-gun person's eyes bugged out at the thought of an AR-15, but he or she still wanted a gun for home defense, the Mini-14 would probably be my pick. Light, handy, easy to use, low recoil, nice wood stock.

Obviously the AR rifles are also good choices here.

Cons: Even a cheap AR is still usually a hundred bucks or more than a decent shotgun.
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Old February 18, 2014, 11:39 AM   #14
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Here is an interesting article about the advantages and disadvantages of a rifle or shotgun for home defense.
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Old February 18, 2014, 11:43 AM   #15
Glenn E. Meyer
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I was going to stay out of this and watch but just FYI after the last post:

http://www.krtraining.com/KRTraining...eflonggun.html

I've trained with both and will return to watching this.
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Old February 18, 2014, 11:54 AM   #16
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Thanks for the link
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Old February 18, 2014, 01:00 PM   #17
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Mini-14
Winchester 94, Pre-1964 30-30
US built AK; chrome barrel + 1.5mm receiver
M1 Carbine
Hi-Point .45 Carbine
Rossi M92 44 magnum carbine
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Old February 18, 2014, 01:35 PM   #18
Deaf Smith
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Glenn,

Good article at the KR site.

I'll just add folks that my wife has seem me shoot my 12 gauge Mossie with slugs and buckshot and she does not want to have anything to do with that gun!

But she can shoot my AR, AK, Mini-14, M1 Carbine, and if I had a highpoint 9mm rifle I bet she would love it. She finds the M1 Carbine the easiest to manage.

And guys... you might very well at home be the one that gets the bad guy shot off you by your wife as BGs tend to concentrate on the males at first.

And that short rifle at 8 yards or less can shoot a dime out of someones hand.

Even the Ruger 10/22 .22 rifle can be quite deadly at such ranges.

And I've shot the highpoint 9mm rifles. Not bad at all. I just wish they used Glock mags.

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Old February 18, 2014, 03:03 PM   #19
Glenn E. Meyer
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I had a colleague who tried to teach his elderly arthritic wife to handle a 12 gauge pistol grip only shotgun. He was mad because she didn't want to practice with it.

I guess I will join in and say I'm not a big fan of beginners with long arms like a full power shotgun. I would ask if the recommenders have tried what they suggested in various house defense scenarios. If you haven't, just taking about stopping power is really only a fractional part of the game.

Thus, if a beginner had ONLY a long arm to play with the OP - I'd suggest a 10/22 with an extended mag. Yep, the meth zombie biker druggie will walk through the rounds to get you but it might work on plain old crooks.
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Old February 18, 2014, 03:24 PM   #20
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Okay, this thread is primarily about hardware -- what long guns folks like for home defense.

But let me interject as something of a footnote that hardware doesn't resolve the whole matter. The choice of hardware is meaningless if one doesn't know how to effectively use what he has chosen.

Handguns have certain advantages and disadvantages for home defense. Long guns have certain advantages and disadvantages for home defense. And learning to use a long gun effectively for home defense has its own set of training and skill set challenges.

But it's always fun to talk about gadgets, so let's continue. But let's not fool ourselves by imagining that there's any particular long gun (or handgun) which will make up for a lack of skill. And let's not forget that pretty much any reliable gun will be suitable if one really knows how to use it under the particular circumstances.
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Old February 18, 2014, 03:24 PM   #21
leadcounsel
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I read the articles, and take some issues with some of the assertions. It's interesting that people have such wide selection.

Here's my opinion.
1. Pump shotgun, 870 or 500 or clone. You can get a reliable used one for around $200-400. 00 or #1 or #4 buckshot or low-recoil buckshot.
2. Semi-auto shotgun such as the Remington 1100. $500. Buckshot.

4-9 shots with a 12 gauge is significant firepower in an average sized home against a garden-variety threat. Given a pie-plate pattern for buckshot at in-home defensive situations, the threat is going to be struck with many shots and significant kinetic energy with each hit. If you've ever seen the wounds from a 12 gauge on a person or deer, you'll be convinced. It's often said that a single full power hit with 00 buck is 9, .33 caliber pellets, or the equivalent of a 9-round SMB 9mm burst. While anecdotal evidences says that people "can" survive this, I believe those survivors would be debilitated at best, and out of the fight due to the shock trauma and damage.

Anyone interested in learning how to combat reload a shotgun should watch this video. A person can learn how to easily add shells to a shotgun using this method while engaged in a fight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7AjaNwtKww

I suspect most people will look over their sights of a handgun, shotgun, and rifle the same at close range, and/or in low light. Both eyes open, point-shooting. In this regard, the difference in peep sight vs. post sight vs. bead sight are irrelevant.

3. AK47. $500+ 30 round mags of .30 caliber ammo. The most prolific combat rifle for a reason. Cheap, easy to use, reliable, and very effective at close ranges. The SKS is a cheaper substitute: $300. 10, 20, 30 round mags of .30 caliber ammo. Simple platform, cheap, reliable and very effective at close range. Mini-30 is another option firing this effective .30 caliber round.

4. AR15. $700+. I've included this because it is an effective weapon and is used by our military. It does offer a bullet that does less penetration than the shotgun and AK47 and even some handguns. It has high capacity and is generally reliable and effective. I think it's more complicated to learn to use than the other weapons mentioned, but YMMV. A substitute might be the Mini-14 in 5.56.

5. Tie: For people in unique situations living in gun-control states, there are good options too: Lever action .357 or .44 magnum or even .30-30 (same ballistics as the 7.62x39). Handgun caliber Kel Tecs and Hipoints. The M1 Carbine is a good choice too, firing a .30 caliber rifle round.

Overall, it's great that we live in a free country and have so many choices available for a person, even a novice, to pick up relative cheap home defense tools, and all are generally simple and effective for someone to learn to use with minimal training. Of course, more training is always better, but for busy soccer moms and career professionals working for a living, and living paycheck to paycheck, setting aside a little money will buy them some serious firepower and home security.

Of course, I believe that training is important. It's also clear that situations and circumstances are important. Someone in an apartment has different considerations than someone on a rural piece of land. Someone with kids in the home has different considerations than a bachelor.

Thank you for your opinions and keep them coming!
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Last edited by leadcounsel; February 18, 2014 at 03:52 PM.
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Old February 18, 2014, 03:53 PM   #22
Glenn E. Meyer
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All the beginners should take a full sized shotgun and try to hold it up and aimed at a BG or the defended door for 5 minutes. At the same time, manipulate the phone and a light.

There's more to it than the big boom killer kinetic energy mantra.
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Old February 18, 2014, 04:36 PM   #23
leadcounsel
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Quote:
All the beginners should take a full sized shotgun and try to hold it up and aimed at a BG or the defended door for 5 minutes. At the same time, manipulate the phone and a light.
Why would someone do this? Why not take concealment/cover behind a bed/couch or small tactically positioned bookcase or other object if defending a doorway, where you can rest the long gun? It's unadvisable to 'detain' someone in your home, but if so, they should be face down on the floor with their arms and legs spread, palms up. A person could easily position themselves so they could cover the subject while using a phone and holding a long gun, behind a kitchen island perhaps or opposite side of a dining room table. You can turn on a lightswitch with your elbow. Most phones have speakerphone capability. You can pick it up, hit 911 and speaker, and set it down.

Any longgun presents these issues. A handgun maybe easier, but that's not the question presented in the OP.
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Last edited by leadcounsel; February 18, 2014 at 04:42 PM.
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Old February 18, 2014, 05:09 PM   #24
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My vote is for a pistol caliber carbine, preferably an auto loader, that uses the same ammo as his handgun.
And, hopefully, you can explain the importance of training and practice.
That just having a weapon is not a panacea that guarantees safety.
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Old February 18, 2014, 05:30 PM   #25
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1. Sterling Type 2 carbine in 9mm, with 4 - 32 round magazines

2. AK-74 with Russian mil-spec ammo

3. AR-15

4. Remington 870 Law Enforcement in 12 gauge

5. A 12 or 20 gauge "Coach" double barreled shotgun
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