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Old July 2, 2015, 10:18 AM   #1
DennRN
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"Stay Muddy", Two officers open fire on idiot

I don't know what this guy was thinking but the two officers were really on their game. There are two videos floating around, one from the male officers PoV and one from the female officers PoV. Notice how quickly they respond and their teamwork in controlling the situation. Little subtle things like pushing silverware away from easy reach. One other thing is that I never personally thought that a strobe function would be very useful or easy to employ on a weapon light. The speed with which it was employed has me second guessing that assumption.

I know these threads tend to get get locked so let's keep it classy TFL.

The following video is not suitable for all viewers and contains images that may be disturbing, viewer discretion advised.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V9AOsWQzpc

Last edited by DennRN; July 2, 2015 at 10:30 AM.
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Old July 2, 2015, 10:44 AM   #2
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The suspect certainly seemed to make some bad choices. I wonder if he had been drinking.
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Old July 2, 2015, 12:20 PM   #3
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The only mistake I see, was that the officer should have put a fresh magazine in his weapon before advancing toward the suspect to put the handcuffs on. (Assuming his partner was providing cover/ support at the time.)
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Old July 2, 2015, 12:56 PM   #4
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Bravo and well done, officers! Every encounter with the public needs to be video recorded by body cams. It helps to ensure that justice is served for all involved parties...as in this case.
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Old July 2, 2015, 01:19 PM   #5
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Here is the other officer's view and shots...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSiq...ature=youtu.be

This different view reveals why the bad guy wasn't able to perform better. He was being grappled.

Interesting that the female officer fired once, then hesitated as the male officer fired multiple times, then she provided three followup shots.
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Old July 2, 2015, 01:27 PM   #6
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She still fired when he was down, so you see how you can not turn that threat massive infusion off.

It would take a lot more training that the Lady Officer most likely had, to reload, holster, stow the partially used magazine in a pocket.

Second nature with the right training.
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Old July 2, 2015, 01:35 PM   #7
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People on the ground may still be a threat just as suspects "running away" can still be a very real danger. This is a great example of a person "running away" who was not actually "running away" but just trying to get into a better shooting position.

The lady officer didn't need to reload. She only fired 4 shots. The male officer maybe should have.
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Old July 2, 2015, 01:48 PM   #8
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Wow. That's teamwork.
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Old July 2, 2015, 01:54 PM   #9
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Interesting that the female officer fired once, then hesitated as the male officer fired multiple times, then she provided three followup shots.
She drew a Taser first, then transitioned to her pistol.

ETA: What's somewhat scary is that the Taser appears to be hi-vis yellow, and if somebody had asked me what she drew after the first I watched it, I would said a black semi-auto pistol. It's freaky what details the brain will fill in to fit our expectations.

Last edited by ATW525; July 2, 2015 at 02:05 PM.
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Old July 2, 2015, 02:11 PM   #10
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wow...that's as real as it gets. I am amazed at the video quality of the body cams.
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Old July 2, 2015, 02:48 PM   #11
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Clearly this guy had a death wish, though. What else did he think was going to happen when he pulled a toy gun on two cops? Geez...
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Old July 2, 2015, 02:55 PM   #12
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While I think body cameras present certain challenges for Police Departments this is an example of a positive use. I suspect the guy was shot in the back at some point, so without the body camera we might be hearing claims that the Police shot a fleeing suspect in the back.
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Old July 2, 2015, 03:14 PM   #13
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Twelve rounds fired. Another example of why a high cap mag (or an armed partner) is a big benefit.

My question: Why didn't the cops frisk the guy and handcuff him in the restroom? I can't understand the initial words of the male cop. Was he not under arrest? If he was just a suspect, the cops had the right to frisk him and even cuff him, even if they had not decided to arrest him.

I didn't realize the female cop got some shots off until seeing her bodycam. It seems the perp was indeed shot in the back and while on the ground after he lost control of his gun. But, it's a good shoot, because as soon as he pulled his gun on the cops he became a felon, and a fleeing armed felon is fair game; in fact, not shooting such a person down would be poor policing.

I assume we won't see protests or riots over this shooting.
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Old July 2, 2015, 03:27 PM   #14
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It seems the perp was indeed shot in the back and while on the ground after he lost control of his gun.
It is highly unlikely the officer saw him lose control of the gun until the shooting stopped and some relaxation of the tunnel vision occurred. As they started their approach and communication cycle, you can hear the "contact/cover" principles starting to be applied.

All in all, a good job of dealing with a bad situation.
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Old July 2, 2015, 03:28 PM   #15
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She drew a Taser first, then transitioned to her pistol.
Good catch! I had missed that.

Okay, that is even more interesting, yelling "gun gun gun gun!" and drawing a taser.
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Old July 2, 2015, 03:45 PM   #16
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what caught my attention was how steady the male cops laser pointer is after the shooting, he had his head in the game and we need more like him.
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Old July 2, 2015, 04:15 PM   #17
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Quote:
Quote:
She drew a Taser first, then transitioned to her pistol.
Good catch! I had missed that.

Okay, that is even more interesting, yelling "gun gun gun gun!" and drawing a taser.
More then likely a result of pre-decided threat response. No disrespect to her, but in the cam angles you can see her in, she is grossly out of shape. That leads to a perceived weakness on her part to physically handle a combative subject.

This is further shown by her blustery verbal commands inside the building. Im sure her thought process during the initial contact inside was "if he gets froggy, im going to Taz him". Repeated over and over in her head.

Then he draws a gun outside and her mind is still on "Taz Him". It took her a few seconds to get that out of her mind.

The other Officer was spot on with his response. Inside arms length, suspect attempts to draw a gun...jam the draw and go hands on. Once he saw that was not working he pushed the suspect away and disrupted his balance. Note the badguy being spun around as the distance is opened.

That gave the Male officer time to draw his gun and start shooting. He continued to fire until he no longer perceives the subject to be a threat...perfect.

A reload after the fact would have been icing on a perfect performance.
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Old July 2, 2015, 04:53 PM   #18
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Twelve rounds fired. Another example of why a high cap mag (or an armed partner) is a big benefit.
Lots to be learned here, if you are paying attention, and even if you arent in law enforcement.

This should be a wake up to those who consider the smaller, low cap guns a "primary". Consider the number of shots, and how he reacted to them.

The video also shows what "shoot them to the ground" means, and is all about. He didnt fall down dead from one shot, and the proper response is to keep shooting until he is down and out, which they did.

What I think is often not understood is, things happen at such a rate, that, other than a CNS hit (and even with one), you most likely wont know immediately, whether or not you actually scored a stopping hit that has truly incapacitated your opponent. If they dont go down, and/or continue to hold a weapon, and appear to be threat, the only response is to keep shooting until the desired result is obtained. If you dont have those quick, rapid follow up shots programmed into your brain/muscle memory, so that you can continue without hesitation, you may want to think about working on that.

Keep in mind too, this was only one boy, who wasnt really really in the game. If that had been a real gun, and he was intent on using it, that lady cop would have likely been shot at the onset, and her partner as well.

This also started at contact distance, and ended up a good bit away. No stationary target/shooters until the last couple of shots. Lots of things going on there that you normally dont see people practicing at the range.
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Old July 2, 2015, 05:16 PM   #19
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It is highly unlikely the officer saw him lose control of the gun until the shooting stopped and some relaxation of the tunnel vision occurred.
From what I can tell, the male cop's shots were all legitimate. I counted nine by him, and he quit after the perp was down and had lost control of his air gun. The female cop's three shots were all late hits. On a football field she would have been penalized. Her focus was undoubtedly rattled by her mistakenly drawing her taser first.

I don't hold her late hits against her, and neither did the grand jury. In a legitimately perceived life-threatening situation I can understand once your brain gives yourself permission to shoot that it's going to take a while to tell it to quit. I assume this will be a factor in the trial of the officer in one of the Carolinas that shot the fleeing felon, Walter Scott, in the back.
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Old July 2, 2015, 07:47 PM   #20
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More then likely a result of pre-decided threat response. No disrespect to her, but in the cam angles you can see her in, she is grossly out of shape. That leads to a perceived weakness on her part to physically handle a combative subject.

This is further shown by her blustery verbal commands inside the building. Im sure her thought process during the initial contact inside was "if he gets froggy, im going to Taz him". Repeated over and over in her head.
In watching the videos, I am more inclined to believe that she probably started drawing her Taser while the suspect was still being grappled by her partner, which may have been the most prudent thing to do at the time. The Taser comes up as the suspect breaks loose, however, so she fires her one shot and transitions while her partner starts shooting.
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Old July 2, 2015, 08:13 PM   #21
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Ways to lose a gunfight:
1. Bring an air soft pistol against two opponents with hi cap pistols
2. Escalate the fight when outnumbered
3. Escalate the fight when at severe tactical disadvantage
4. Escalate the fight when inebriated
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Old July 2, 2015, 09:23 PM   #22
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I was very impressed by the male officer's draw. Very smooth draw and it seems like the gun is firing before it even hits full extension, but still very controlled.

I've been told that he's using a shooting drill known as the "zipper". First shot in the drill is expected center mass within a second of your draw and then climb each shot upwards until the target stops.

Whatever he drilled, he did it well.

Had it been a real gun, I think this officer would have handled it well, but I worry for how the other officer in the video would have fared against a real gun.
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Old July 2, 2015, 10:20 PM   #23
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I heard that The Zipper tactic was perfected during the Chicago gang wars of the 1970s. It was an assassination tactic using a 10-round .22 LR pistol: the first shot was aimed at the crotch, each successive shot was higher, culminating with the 10th shot in the forehead. Extremely effective.
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Old July 3, 2015, 07:17 AM   #24
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How to recognize a Darwin Award Winner.

1. Bring an air soft pistol against two opponents with hi cap pistols
2. Escalate the fight when outnumbered
3. Escalate the fight when at severe tactical disadvantage
4. Escalate the fight when inebriated
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Old July 3, 2015, 01:17 PM   #25
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Natural Selection isn't QUITE dead, yet

Darwin awards, indeed. Inebriated or not, that suspect engaged in suicidal behaviour, and nature took its course.
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