The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 1, 2012, 11:29 PM   #51
TheGoldenState
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2010
Posts: 1,191
Quote:
OK - we all know the 4 rules. Say them to yourself, yet again.
Honestly, and I am going to get reamed for this, but I don't know the four official rules, THOUGH I am supremely confident that I practice/use them.

I have been shooting for 16 years and generally go with "Don't point a gun, whether its loaded or unloaded, at anything you aren't are ok with killing/destroying." and "The day you get comfortable, is the day you get careless."

So, what are the exact official 4 rules? and Whom are they set by? NRA?

(See isn't it better letting you fellas learn me, rather then just looking it up and saving myself the embarrassment).
__________________
The Day You Get Comfortable Is The Day You Get Careless...
TheGoldenState is offline  
Old May 1, 2012, 11:44 PM   #52
9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2011
Location: Land of the Free
Posts: 2,710
People make mistakes all the time, and when it comes to gun rights, people want to blow it up and use this to take away someones right to own guns and carry. People drive and text all the time, accidents happen from that too, but we don't want to drive it into some political thing and remove someones rights.
__________________
See user title
9mm is offline  
Old May 2, 2012, 08:55 AM   #53
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,964
Quote:
So, what are the exact official 4 rules? and Whom are they set by? NRA?
The Four Rules are attributed to Jeff Cooper and taught pretty universally, including by NRA-endorsed instructors.

Although some people refer to them as "Rule 1," "Rule 2," etc., the order doesn't really matter.

1 - Treat every gun as if it is loaded.
2 - Never let the muzzle point at anything that you don't want to see destroyed.
3 - Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target and ready to fire.
4 - Be certain of your target and everything around and behind it.

As you think about the rules and their application, you see a built-in redundancy that keeps people safe.
TailGator is offline  
Old May 2, 2012, 10:50 AM   #54
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,526
Being bored grading papers, I have complied the rules including new ones that we should live by.

1 - Treat every gun as if it is loaded.
2 - Never let the muzzle point at anything that you don't want to see destroyed.
3 - Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target and ready to fire.
4 - Be certain of your target and everything around and behind it.
5. Thou shalt not put any gun before the 1911
6. Thou shalt not say bad things about the Glock
7. Thou shalt not covet thy friend’s new gun
8. Thou will shoot on the Sabbath if there is a good match
9. Thou shall shoot to stop and not to kill as a purpose
10. Thou shall not commit adultery as other folks have guns too!
11. Thou shall not bear false pretenses that you were a SEAL
12. Thou shall ask for your lawyer rather than giving false witness to the officers arresting you.
13. Thou shall not buy a Judge lest ye be Judged

I apologize but 66 essays make you nuts.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is online now  
Old May 2, 2012, 11:49 AM   #55
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,530
There are a number of ways the Four Rules have been stated. Here's how they're put at Gunsite (founded by Jeff Cooper):


Gunsite is a "hot range", and actually loaded guns are customarily worn on the ranges and throughout the grounds.

So --
  • If you hand me a gun, don't bother telling me it's not loaded. Because I follow Rule One, I won't believe you and will personally verify/clear the gun.

  • If I criticize you for pointing a gun at me, my spouse, my cat, or anyone/anything else I value, don't bother trying to excuse yourself by telling me that it's not loaded.

  • If your gun fires when you didn't intend it to, don't bother trying to explain yourself by saying anything like, "I didn't think it was loaded." You should have understood that under Rule One since it is a gun it is loaded, and you should have conducted yourself accordingly.

  • And wherever you are, if your gun is in your hand, you jolly well need to find a safe direction for your muzzle until you've actually got something to shoot at, and you're about to be shooting at it.

  • And if you're not actually shooting, your finger needs to be off the trigger, whether you're using your sights or not.

  • And you need to know your target and what's behind it even in a self defense situation. No one is going to pat you on the back and tell you what a splendid fellow you are for wasting poor old Mrs. Smith when trying to avoid getting mugged yourself. (If you ever have a chance to train with Louis Awerbuck, he will have you engaging targets with "non-combatants" in front of behind the "BG" target. It will be up to you to move or place your shots (or in his moving target class, time your shot) to avoid hitting a non-combatant.)

And let's see what Jeff Cooper had to say about Rule One:
  • Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, Vol. 6 (1998), No. 2, pg. 8.
    Quote:
    ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
    The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again.
  • Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, vol.9 (2001), No. 6, pg. 29:
    Quote:
    ...We think that "treat all guns as if they were loaded" implies with the "as if" qualification a dangerous choice of assumptions...
  • Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, vol.11 (2003), No. 13, pg. 64:
    Quote:
    ...A major point of issue is Rule 1, "All guns are always loaded." There are people who insist that we cannot use this because it is not precisely true. Some guns are sometimes unloaded. These folks maintain that the rule should read that one should always treat all guns as if they were loaded. The trouble here is the "as if," which leads to the notion that the instrument at hand may actually not be loaded....
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old May 2, 2012, 01:48 PM   #56
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,530
BTW, Glenn,

I'm going to suggest to the group I teach with that we incorporate your rules 5 - 13 in our lessons ------- with your permission, of course.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old May 3, 2012, 08:51 AM   #57
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,526
Sure - just give me attribution - here that everybody!
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is online now  
Old May 3, 2012, 11:27 AM   #58
scottd913
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2012
Location: Texas ... north of houston, east of el paso
Posts: 214
i too am unaware of what exactly happened but i know what did not happen.
as a child i learned the four basic rules for handling a gun.
it was drilled in to my head waaaaay before i was alowed to handle live ammo and a gun.
that is what did not happened!!!!!

when i was a child a gun was one of the tools we used to feed our familys.
of cource my papaw also had nice pretty guns that were look not touch but same as the tools in the toolbox that held the needs to keep our automobiles on the road they alone would not take care of the cars. KNOWLEDGE was a necessity!!!
im not sure what area of the country this happened but im sure it was in one of them areas where having a firearm is a gun not a tool!!!
scottd913 is offline  
Old May 3, 2012, 01:50 PM   #59
PADefenseTrainer
Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2011
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 49
Quote:
7. Thou shalt not covet thy friend’s new gun
I have trouble with #7.

I don't disagree with it. But some of my friends have some REALLY nice guns
__________________
NRA Life Member | NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle & Shotgun Instructor | NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

".. a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen..." - Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181)
PADefenseTrainer is offline  
Old May 9, 2012, 12:32 AM   #60
TheGoldenState
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2010
Posts: 1,191
Quote:
1 - Treat every gun as if it is loaded.
2 - Never let the muzzle point at anything that you don't want to see destroyed.
3 - Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target and ready to fire.
4 - Be certain of your target and everything around and behind it.
Hey that Cooper fella must have had some common sense. Or is it rare sense nowadays?

Thanks Gator and Meyer
__________________
The Day You Get Comfortable Is The Day You Get Careless...
TheGoldenState is offline  
Old May 9, 2012, 07:56 AM   #61
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,342
Quote:
Assuming the instructor was NRA certified, one would think he'd have started out by prohibiting ammo from the training room.
Like the Florida NRA certified instructor who shot one of his conceal carry students?

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...tions-director
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is online now  
Old May 9, 2012, 09:39 AM   #62
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,526
Friend of mine took a carry course in Oregon. Instructor fired a 1911 over the tops of class' noggins.

Stuff happens! I've had a IDPA shooter let one into the ground a foot my from toes on the draw.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is online now  
Old May 9, 2012, 10:00 AM   #63
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
DNS, my point was not about instructor perfection, it was about standardization. Had he followed guidelines, there would not have been ammo in the classroom.

Instructors err. That does not mean there are no guidelines.
MLeake is offline  
Old May 9, 2012, 03:41 PM   #64
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,342
Wow MLeake, my post wasn't about instructor perfection either. I have no idea where you got the notion that it was or that I was challenging your post in some manner by posting an example supportive of what you said. After all, my post was about standardization. Had he followed guidelines set by the NRA who has certified him as an instructor, there would not have been ammo in the classroom.

Of course, there would be no such incidents and certainly none with injuries if folks follows basic safety rules. The issue of being NRA certified would not be relevant at all of folks followed the safety rules.

Quote:
it was about standardization. Had he followed guidelines, there would not have been ammo in the classroom.
Nobody has suggested otherwise.

However, a point that you obviously missed is that by being an NRA certified instructor does not mean he follows the guidelines. There is no magical protection that comes with being NRA certified. He violated the safety rules. He violated the NRA guidelines for instruction.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is online now  
Old May 9, 2012, 03:44 PM   #65
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGoldenState View Post
Hey that Cooper fella must have had some common sense. Or is it rare sense nowadays?

Thanks Gator and Meyer
I've determined that we assume the wrong definition of common... Common CAN mean what we normally think, basically that there's a lot of it but it can also mean available or owned by/for everyone.

Like in the old days, a town may have had a "common" well. It was available to everyone.

Just like "common" sense, just because the well was there doesn't mean people didn't die of dehydration.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old May 10, 2012, 10:44 AM   #66
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,049
Quote:
However, a point that you obviously missed is that by being an NRA certified instructor does not mean he follows the guidelines.
I've seen all too much of that. I dealt with a guy a couple of years ago who was teaching First Steps, and he skipped the part showing students how to disassemble their guns. The reason? "YouTube has videos on that." That might explain why he was finishing the whole class in just over an hour.

We also had a local hunter-safety instructor who was using his time to lecture students on politics and give some atrocious (and legally erroneous) self-defense advice.

The NRA certification courses are pretty clear on what is to be taught, and how it is to be taught, but that doesn't stop some folks from completely disregarding those factors once they're out in the wild.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus
Tom Servo is offline  
Old May 16, 2012, 09:03 PM   #67
Gossettc68
Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2004
Posts: 23
When I took my CHL a few years back I actually wondered why the instructor allowed the students to handle firearms PRIOR to taking the initial written tests.

That being said, either way you can't get around the fact that people will just do stupid things regardless of the situation.
Gossettc68 is offline  
Old May 23, 2012, 11:24 AM   #68
FrontSight
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2005
Posts: 1,712
LOL, I have to chuckle at the mention of Jeff Cooper and his rules.

Because I guess very few people know this, but he himself had a ND once.

A friend of his recounted the story after he passed; it was in one of the gun rags, paying tribute to the Colonel.

Summary of itgoes like this" The Colonel bought a beautiful .44 Magnum Revolver and was showing it to his friend, admiring it and dry firing it while he pointed it at some kind of meter (electric?) outside his office window...click click click BOOM! A perfect shot through the window and into the meter.

He was stunned, and could only say "That doesn't happen to me..."

So, folks, ANYONE can have an ND...
__________________
To kill something as great as a duck just to smell the gunpowder is a crime against nature. - Alan Liere
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. - George Bernard Shaw
FrontSight is offline  
Old May 24, 2012, 09:00 PM   #69
KevK.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2012
Posts: 137
training class

I was at a training class and all of the students were at the firing line firing 6 rounds at paper targets from about 3 yards. The guy in the booth next to me fired off his very quickly and put 3 rounds into my target and didn't hit anything but backstop with the other 3. All this was before I even fired.

I put my gun back onto the bench without firing a shot and spoke up to the Range Master. The guy argued that he didn't shoot at my target, I just only hit mine 3 times. The Range Master checked both weapons and kicked him from the class.

That man should not ever hold a gun.
__________________
CZ82, S&W Mod. 65 .357, Marlin 22mn (22WMR), Mossberg 500.
KevK. is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12208 seconds with 7 queries