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Old April 25, 2012, 10:31 AM   #26
Doyle
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Jim, that's actually Ron White's line.
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Old April 25, 2012, 10:54 AM   #27
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I don't get why there would have been any ammo in the room either. That makes no sense. New shooters, you wouldn't load the magazines unless you're on the range and the magazines don't go in the gun unless you're on the line. I think there was a short coming on the instructor not making sure each gun was clear. I almost wonder if they weren't supposed be handling any guns yet and when the instructor left the room, show and tell began.
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Old April 26, 2012, 01:47 AM   #28
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but why, oh why, was that pistol loaded???????
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Old April 26, 2012, 02:21 AM   #29
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Untrained adults, gun ranges: gun shops...

The member post about untrained adults brings up a good point.
It's a smart idea to be alert & aware of range shooters or people handling firearms who may be careless/high-risk.
I try to shoot at indoor ranges near me during the off hours or slow periods to avoid the nutjobs and gun owners who want to show off/play around.
A local rental place just had another gun suicide about 3 weeks ago.
I'd suggest picking up on the unsafe behaviors of untrained adults, like having the index finger on the trigger, waving guns around, improper grips or stances, putting their hands or fingers on the muzzle(I've seen that a few times), shooters who rapid fire or avoid aiming at targets, not paying attention to other lanes or gun owners(this is just crass & rude but I've seen it too).

Range masters or safety officers should monitor these types of untrained shooters and remove them if needed but all gun owners need to follow basic safety regulations.

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Old April 27, 2012, 04:46 AM   #30
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Quote:
I'm curious as to why there was live ammo in the training room.
That was my first question too.

The first thing we do in a training class is to announce and check that there is NO live ammunition in the class room.
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Old April 27, 2012, 06:00 AM   #31
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Perhaps the instructor saw something in the couple and decided to test Darwin's Theory himself?
Seriously though, is there any explanation from the instructor as to why he left?
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Old April 27, 2012, 09:48 AM   #32
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Without naming names (yes, I know ) some very famous instructors have left ammo in rifles, left the gun and then had somebody make a boom!

With the number of folks, all stupid things will happen.
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Old April 27, 2012, 01:50 PM   #33
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In support of Glen's comments. An Army study from some years ago found that the units/soldiers with the highest number of accidental gunshot wounds were the Special Operations soldiers. They also happen to be the most highly trained and proficient soldiers.

Or as the old Country Philosopher said "there an int no cure for a terminal case of the dumb ares".
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Old April 27, 2012, 02:12 PM   #34
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They also happen to be the most highly trained and proficient soldiers.
Possible explanations for this:
1. They are probably also the ones with the most range time (shear volumn of ammo fired would give more chances of accidents).
2. They are far more likely to be doing live-fire excercies under non-range scenarios (i.e. hostage rescue, close quarters drills, etc. - all contributing to chances for ADs and NDs).
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Old April 27, 2012, 02:14 PM   #35
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+1 Doyle.
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Old April 27, 2012, 03:31 PM   #36
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My wife. I wouldn't want to be around here and a squirt gun. She once picked up a revolver off the table and was dry firing it. She never looked to see if it was loaded.

I would never leave a loaded gun around her.
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Old April 27, 2012, 06:34 PM   #37
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I know, this may not go over to well, BUT.

Seems like we're always very quick to jump on people who have gun accidents.

Yes, some are so stupid as to defy logic and deserve criticism. But when you mix millions of guns and millions of people who, even if they were all reasonably intelligent, you still would have accidents. Same with anything else with inherent dangers.

Someone just like us can have a gun accident. And we do. Cops, Federal officers, citizens, hunters, military.

I wouldn't call Bill Jordan a bozo, but a "stupid" incident killed a colleague and ended his career as a gun writer. He didn't obey rule 1, 3, and 4. I might suggest that each and every one of us has violated the rules more than once.
And there's no excuse for violating the rules.

There's no excuse for a gun accident, and they happen, and there's no excuse and they happen.

This fellow was at least in a gun safety course. Personally I know many good instructors who would have made gun handling protocol quite clear to his students while he was in or out of the room. Don't know what happened in this case as to the student violating instructions or not been properly instructed in the first place.

Instructor: "I was out of the room" translation, "it wasn't my fault".

Student: "I did something stupid" translation "I accept responsibility".
Instructors have responsibilities, also.

I suspect that if he takes the course again, he'll be the safest student in the class.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

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Old April 27, 2012, 06:46 PM   #38
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Well said, Nnobby45
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Old April 27, 2012, 07:23 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nnobby45
...Instructor: "I was out of the room" translation, "it wasn't my fault"....
Actually, as an instructor myself, I see this as a particularly serious issue. These were novices. Novices can be especially unpredictable. An instructor needs to understand that, and conduct himself accordingly.
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Old April 27, 2012, 08:43 PM   #40
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Doyle: My apologies. I could have sworn I heard it from Larry. At any rate, whoever said it is clever. I'll never forget the line. :
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Old April 27, 2012, 08:47 PM   #41
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jhenry: That's funny!
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Old April 27, 2012, 09:02 PM   #42
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jhenry, I've actually heard line that given as fact.
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Old April 27, 2012, 09:02 PM   #43
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Quote:
Without naming names (yes, I know ) some very famous instructors have left ammo in rifles, left the gun and then had somebody make a boom!
I know very few instructors who have not had serious ND's.
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Old April 27, 2012, 09:59 PM   #44
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jhenry

Quote:
Whenever I sweep the room at the gunshop I stick my finger in the end of the barrel. That way if it goes off the barrel just gets a big bulge in it and no one gets hurt.

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Old April 27, 2012, 10:54 PM   #45
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I wonder if they passed.
They should I would say they took more lesson on the value of gun safety than anyone else.
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Old April 29, 2012, 01:12 AM   #46
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SOFs, NDs/ADs, deaths....

To add a few points about spec operations troops having ADs & training deaths, I read that in the elite units(CAG, DevGru/SEAL-06, ParaRescue, ISA, etc), there are at least 1 training related death incidents every year.
As stated, many spec ops units use live rounds & must learn to shoot in CQB(close quarters). This doesn't include smoke, fog, rain, sea spray, etc.

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Old April 29, 2012, 01:28 AM   #47
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The question is, are they saying they have a higher accident rate per capita, or per round fired?

If a unit fires an average of 20,000 rounds per soldier per year, the accident rate for that unit will probably be higher, per capita, than for a less well trained unit where soldiers average 200 rounds per year.

That doesn't even take into account live fire exercises, or higher numbers of actual combat sorties (where things have more chances to go wrong).

So, I'd be curious to see what the stats like when conditions and round counts are taken into consideration.
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Old May 1, 2012, 08:06 PM   #48
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I've heard a lot about this, and since I live about 45 minutes from where it happened, I'm sure some of it is true, but I'm unable as of yet to figure out what parts are fact, and which are made up.

The one I heard that makes the most sense to me is that it happened before the class started and the gun belonged to the Husband.

But I've heard other accounts that are just as possible, and haven't been able to confirm any of them.

So it might be the Instructor just failed to check the guns.
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Old May 1, 2012, 10:43 PM   #49
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I don't know who is worse, this guy or the 4yr/o who fired a revolver into shop ceiling? Atleast the 4yr/o kid had the muzzle facing in a "safe" direction!
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Old May 1, 2012, 11:02 PM   #50
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well... things that make you go hmm... IF I was married and IF I was trying to kill my husband... I'd take a bullet in the hand and wait for the instructor to leave the room too... just saying...
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