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Old April 27, 2012, 10:21 AM   #26
Don H
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Mike38,

If Constitutional rights did not apply to non-citizens, then the government could: incarcerate or execute non-citizens without trial or legal representation, bug their hotel rooms and conduct warrantless searches of their possessions or persons at will, throw them in jail if a government agent didn't like something they said, torture them with impunity, etc.

Would this then be a country in which you would care to live? Is this what America stands for?

I think poptime nailed it.
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Old April 27, 2012, 10:45 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBowTies88
You know, I'm happy the SAF is helping to fight for the rights of legal aliens BUT

There are entire states of born and bred american citizens that cannot in any way shape or form legally protect themselves with any kind of weapon. I guess I just feel a little left out, like they could maybe be doing more to help us in the freedom hating states....
Favorable law is getting built for us piece by piece. Every favorable judicial ruling adds to the body of legal principles that will ultimately help clean up the issues in States like New Jersey.
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Old April 27, 2012, 11:01 AM   #28
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Quote:
If Constitutional rights did not apply to non-citizens, then the government could: incarcerate or execute non-citizens without trial or legal representation, bug their hotel rooms and conduct warrantless searches of their possessions or persons at will, throw them in jail if a government agent didn't like something they said, torture them with impunity, etc.
It could be argued that all of the above is already happening, to non-citizens and citizens alike. But that’s another topic.

So someone tell me, what benefit is there to becoming a citizen if all Constitutional rights should be given to all persons that happen to be standing on U.S. soil? Maybe this is why no one bothers to become U.S. citizens?

Don’t get me wrong. I’m all for immigration. LEGAL immigration.
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Old April 27, 2012, 11:17 AM   #29
Frank Ettin
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One might want to become a citizen in order to be able to vote and more fully participate in the business and live of our nation. Through out our history so many people have chosen to become part of the United States, not just a guest.
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Old April 27, 2012, 11:20 AM   #30
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Mike38, a couple of thoughts:

One immediate difference between a citizen and a non-citizen is that the non-citizen can potentially be deported for relatively minor infractions.

As a corollary to that thought, the non-citizen has to regularly re-apply to remain in the US. I have a non-citizen friend who is married to a US citizen, and he has to do regular interviews with US immigrations officers to renew his green card and maintain his ability to work in the US. It's possible, though unlikely, that he could have either or both permissions denied by some bureaucrat.

The next thought is that you say you have no problem with "legal immigration." That's what we are discussing - the law in question would bar (or the court case might allow) lawful resident aliens (like my friend) to obtain NM permits. (My friend is in FL, so it wouldn't really apply to him - though he does hold a FL CCW.)

The case has nothing to do with allowing illegal aliens to obtain permits.
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Old April 27, 2012, 08:59 PM   #31
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So someone tell me, what benefit is there to becoming a citizen if all Constitutional rights should be given to all persons that happen to be standing on U.S. soil?
Natural rights apply to all human beings by default and are irrespective of laws. Those rights are respected for all people on our soil. Certain legal rights are restricted for actual citizens.

That said, general discussions of immigration policy are off-topic for the forum, so let's steer it back on track.
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Old April 28, 2012, 12:19 AM   #32
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To get us all back on track and show the validity of the lawsuit, I give you, the 14th Amendment:

Quote:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
I've highlighted the relevant portions, as you can see.

After defining the two types of citizenship, the section then goes on to talk about any person. In particular, any person subject to the jurisdiction of a State.

Lawful aliens are just that type of person that the amendment is about.

The State may not deprive them of their rights without due process of law. Nor may the State withhold the equal protection of the law from lawful aliens.

By providing licenses or permits to lawful citizens of New Mexico, they must provide the same to lawful resident aliens.

Further, by statutory law, the US Government provides to lawful resident aliens the same fundamental rights and protections it affords to US citizens. That law is generally referred to as immigration law and preempts any State law to the contrary (sorry Tom, it is part of the complaint).

The complaint cites three civil rights violations: 1. Violation of 2A. 2. Violation of 14A. 3. Preemption of US Immigration law.
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Old April 28, 2012, 09:37 AM   #33
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Thank you Mr. Norris, you have educated me.
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Old April 29, 2012, 03:25 AM   #34
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Quote:
It probably has something to do with these words.

Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...,
Inspiring words which should always be kept in mind but those are from the Declaration of Independence and not the Constitution. Sadly, our Constitution did not live up to these fine words as it tolerated slavery and contained other vestiges of inequality. The Constitution was a document intended for practical application where the Declaration of Independence was intended to explain the inspiration for our break away from England.
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Old April 29, 2012, 03:30 AM   #35
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Al has hit it on the head. The applicable provision of the 14th Amendment talks about the right of a person and not a citizen. Since the RKBA is now a fundamental right incorporated by the 14th, it seems obvious that lawful resident aliens are included within its protection. I think the tougher issue is the rights of non-resident legal aliens or even illegal aliens but that's going off-topic.
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Old April 29, 2012, 07:13 AM   #36
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
As a corollary to that thought, the non-citizen has to regularly re-apply to remain in the US. I have a non-citizen friend who is married to a US citizen, and he has to do regular interviews with US immigrations officers to renew his green card and maintain his ability to work in the US. It's possible, though unlikely, that he could have either or both permissions denied by some bureaucrat.
There's something wrong about that. My wife is a "green card" resident alien. Although her original green card said "PERMANENT" in bold letters across the top, it expired one (two?) years after issuance. Once that was renewed, however, "permanent" means "permanent." No renewals, no interviews. And she is allowed to work.
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Old April 29, 2012, 04:17 PM   #37
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I'm happy for your wife, AB. (Seriously, not sarcastically; it's always nice to come to the end of red tape.) There may be some difference based on jobs, times, I don't know. My friend is an airline transport pilot, so there may be some other issues that come into play (TSA? DHS? Dunno.)

My Dutch friend has had multiple interviews in the past several years. I'm not sure if he has met or will meet a gate where that becomes no longer necessary, but I'll ask him.

(I'm only aware of his interviews because our scheduling office kept screwing up his day off to go to the Federal Building, and he kept having to fix it.)

Anyway, I don't want to veer off into the bushes. But I am all in favor of legal resident aliens having carry rights, just like citizens.
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Old April 30, 2012, 10:36 PM   #38
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I am also an X green card. I had a green card for 15 years (1955-1970), I don't remember ever having to "renew" it, even when I spent extended periods of time outside of the US.

I also know a Dutch fellow (same guy?) engineer, very inteligent and well educated. He is not here on a real "green card". He is here on a work permit, and yes, the work permits are only good for 3 years, and it has to be for a guaranteed a job that only that person can fill because of some unique training or experience.

This Dutch guy I know is also trying to get a perminent green card. IMHO, today's immigration laws are not for the good of the country, they are for the good of the politically connected.
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Old May 1, 2012, 09:58 AM   #39
Glenn E. Meyer
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To move to other rights, should a resident alien not get a fair trial or be subject to torture?

Human rights would seem to extend beyond tribal designations.

If you were arrested in a foreign country and subject to their laws and subject to torture - would you be OK with that as it is their legal structure?
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Old May 1, 2012, 11:47 AM   #40
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To move to other rights, should a resident alien not get a fair trial or be subject to torture?
Under the spirit (and letter) of our laws, no. The whole idea is that those rights are endowed to all people and are not subject to being "granted" by a government. To reserve them to citizens, or any other sub-class is to invalidate them as natural rights.
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Old May 6, 2012, 11:27 PM   #41
Gray Peterson
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RedBowTies,

There's already a carry lawsuit in the 3rd circuit. It used to be Muller v. Maenza.
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Old May 7, 2012, 04:26 PM   #42
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In regards to the "renewable" green cards, that only applies to green card holders via marriage. To cut back on "marry for money" operations, the INS required a marriage to last for 2 years, and they did a follow-on interview to assert that the couple was actually living together and not just staying married on paper. A regular green card becomes permanent immediately, so you have to renew your card every 10 years (no interview or review, just fees).
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Old August 14, 2012, 10:33 AM   #43
Al Norris
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Last Thursday, Aug. 9th, David Sigale filed a motion for a preliminary injunction against the State. You can read it here.

I found it very well plead, but of course we will have to wait and see how New Mexico answers in opposition.

The docket may be viewed, here.
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Old August 14, 2012, 04:09 PM   #44
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I would say the Preliminary Statement sums up the case very nicely, and is rather persuasive in itself.
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Old August 14, 2012, 04:41 PM   #45
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I completely agree with you, but you know you would think people would be more upset.

What if I just walked on over to texas and took you right to carry a firearm open or consealed? took all your mags over 10/15 rounds and made any pistol grip shotgun or rifle with a threaded muzzle/bayo lug/moveable stock illegal? what if you could only buy one gun per month? and that only after waiting 1-6 months for the permit to do so and pay 20 dollars for the permit you just waited for.

You as a free man would be awfully upset...but it seems like "hey its not happening to me and they can move" mindset if stopping there from being a massive outrage and outcry.

I wish more people truly understood what it was like to not be free to protect yourself or your family. It's not just an inconvience its an injustice.
My crack defense force of full auto wiener dogs would insure not all of you would survive the attempt, and they would be parts you would miss.

I also can't get worked up about it. We elect the politicians we get. You (generic) wouldn't have those laws as a potential issue in the first place if you had a supportive politicians.

Don't like those laws, sue for your rights. Work for legislators more understanding of the 2nd Amendment.
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Old August 14, 2012, 04:43 PM   #46
zincwarrior
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Quote:
Mike38,

If Constitutional rights did not apply to non-citizens, then the government could: incarcerate or execute non-citizens without trial or legal representation, bug their hotel rooms and conduct warrantless searches of their possessions or persons at will, throw them in jail if a government agent didn't like something they said, torture them with impunity, etc.

Would this then be a country in which you would care to live? Is this what America stands for?

I think poptime nailed it.
I'm sure you're intending that I take umbrage that that could occur. With all respect to your opinion, I could care less than nothing if they are not citizens. I will bow to the requirements of the 14th Amendment, however, but I am nt going to act like I care a whit.

Last edited by zincwarrior; August 14, 2012 at 04:49 PM.
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Old August 14, 2012, 07:11 PM   #47
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so Zinc...who do you know (or their ancestor) that did not come to where they are, from somewhere else.

My wife's family has been in the US since 1640, my family has been in the US since (first resident entry) 1955...Guess what...both families orgiinally came from Europe.

Where did your family come from? If you don't say Mexico then there are many "original" Texans that were there before your family was. Eh?

Oh yes, I'm here now, close the doors, we don't want any more people to come and compete with those that are already here....shame on you.
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Old August 14, 2012, 09:18 PM   #48
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Nonsense. If you are a citizen here you have rights. If you're (generic not you personally) not a US citizen I couldn't care less about you.
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Old August 14, 2012, 09:23 PM   #49
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zincwarrior, why do you have a problem with legal visitors or resident aliens?

I see the attitude you espouse reflected whenever I have to go someplace such as Saudi Arabia; generally, I tend to think our outlook here is much better than theirs (example: get in a traffic accident, it's automatically your fault because you are not a Saudi).

But, based on your recent posts, I guess we have more in common with that region than I'd thought.
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Old August 14, 2012, 09:29 PM   #50
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I don't have a problem with them. I just separate citizens and noncitizens.
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