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Old April 22, 2012, 08:38 PM   #26
ClydeFrog
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open carry, stances, general public....

For armed citizens or anyone who works in a armed, uniformed position, you should learn to stand with your firearm protected or off-line from a person next to you. You don't have to be aggressive just use common sense.
Some people or young kids may see your holstered firearm & be curious.
Avoid allowing anyone staying close to the weapon or distracting you.
To learn a few weapon retention skills or to be able to fend off a firearm snatch is smart too. Some street people or criminals may appear "docile" or friendly but could be aggressive in a instant.
My state recently put new gun laws in place to avoid CC license holders(W) from any legal hassles if the concealed firearm is exposed.

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Old April 24, 2012, 06:22 PM   #27
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Open carry in the woods is one thing. Open carry in Ypsilanti is just dumb. Also, you can't legally buy a handgun in Michigan unless you are 21.

www.handgunlaw.us/states/michigan.pdf

if you can legally own / buy a handgun then you can legally take the class and apply for a CPL.
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Old April 25, 2012, 10:08 AM   #28
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Weapon retention is all well and good. However, what bothers me is that folks assume they will get into a wrestling match and can apply such skills with awareness.

If someone starts the theft with a thrown rock to your noggin or an OC spray by surprise - you are in trouble.

Such tactics would become popular if snatches became a fad.
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Old April 25, 2012, 10:22 AM   #29
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Yet the Law Enforcement community has outlawed the use of the Blackhawk Serpa positive retention holsters at their training facilities.

Go figure !!!


A good read:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455923
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Old April 25, 2012, 10:50 AM   #30
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Quote:
And this is why imho open carry is not smart.
Yep, I have to agree with this.

I think LockedBreech put it well. I want to be able to open carry, I should be able to open carry, But I don't want to open carry.
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Old April 25, 2012, 11:12 AM   #31
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The irony of shooting yourself when drawing from a Serpa during an open-carry snatch incident and then resultant thread boggles the mind of a moderator.

I know two guy who shot themselves with them. I've seen some very scary newbies trying to draw from those and one experienced LEO with a new one who had difficulty. The former had to be grabbed by the SO.

I heard from a little birdie that some of the major competition organizations are thinking about banning them as 20 or more local clubs have done this.

I agree that open carry should be legal but I would not in most situations. I have while hunting but that's it.
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Old April 25, 2012, 11:25 AM   #32
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Quote:
If someone starts the theft with a thrown rock to your noggin ... you are in trouble.
It was a common tactic of flash mobs that the "signal" which triggers the coordinated attack is that one of the mob members is designated to hit the victim in the face with a thrown baseball or other object. Twelve inch softballs are not really that soft BTW...

If you just get jumped the assialants are going to get your phone / electronic device, and go for your wallet. If you are carrying concealed, they may come across your firearm, they may miss it. But if you're carrying it openly they definately won't miss it, and I think that if you are attacked while OC'ing - it's more likely to be explosively violent, brutal and decisive - as in a bludgeon to the head, because the assailants already know you're carrying, they've decided to attack you despite that, they know they have to at least knock you out if not kill you to keep you from deploying your weapon.
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Old April 25, 2012, 11:32 AM   #33
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Such tactics would become popular if snatches became a fad.
A few years ago, they broke up a group of inmates in Pelican Bay who were teaching other inmates how to disarm police officers. Who wants to place bets that civilian gun snatches will become a gang initiation ritual at some point?
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Old April 25, 2012, 11:54 AM   #34
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Just this weekend, I came up behind and stood right next to an elderly gentleman who was open carrying.

The fella was carrying a snubnose revolver on his belt at the 4 o'clock position in a scabbard belt holster. I am being liberal when I say the 4 oclock position. It was probably more like at the 5 o'clock position.

He was standing in line at the VERY busy paint counter of a big name home improvement store. He never noticed me standing there for a full five minutes (by my watch) all the while within arm's reach of his weapon. Both of his hands were full holding on to a case of fluorescent tubes and fiddling with his I-phone at the same time.

Observing at how preoccupied this man was and how exposed his revolver was to a simple snatching, I was concerned enough to ask him if his holster had any weapon retention features.

Obviously perturbed at being yanked away from his electronically-induced "condition white" state of awareness, he hesitated. Finally after much stammering, he admitted that his holster had no retention features.

I wished him good luck as he scurried out of the store...leaving his merchandise behind.

If you're going to OC responsibly, at least use the proper holster. Plan ahead, think about what you are doing and maintain the proper level of awareness.
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Old April 25, 2012, 12:47 PM   #35
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If you're going to OC responsibly, at least use the proper holster. Plan ahead, think about what you are doing and maintain the proper level of awareness
Thanks for sharing that story, Skadoosh. It's a bit unnerving to hear how oblivious he was to his surroundings, and how easily he could have been disarmed.

I've always felt that people should be able to open-carry if they wish, but they also need to realize that a great deal of personal responsibility comes along with that right.

It's not my choice, nor will it ever be.
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Old April 25, 2012, 11:25 PM   #36
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So the one other case was found. Two cases and that is it.

If we are going to come down on activities b/c of two cases then the shooting sports are in trouble.
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Old April 26, 2012, 12:00 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnwilliamson062
...Two cases and that is it.

If we are going to come down on activities b/c of two cases...
Two cases that we know about. How many don't we know about? How good/assessable/searchable is the data?

An exposed gun will be an obvious temptation to some integrity impaired citizens. And we know that such types go for guns openly carried by LEOs with some regularity.

It doesn't take much imagination to conclude that anyone who openly carries a gun in public ought to be aware of the risk and have the training and skill to deal with it if necessary.
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Old April 26, 2012, 12:04 AM   #38
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So the one other case was found. Two cases and that is it.
Actually, here are numbers three and four.

I know of two people, one of whom I've spoken with, in the Atlanta are who have had it happen to them in the last three years.
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Old April 26, 2012, 02:04 AM   #39
ClydeFrog
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Local law enforcement, retention holsters; speed vs security...

Before my state governor signed the new 2A-gun laws, a county sheriff testified to the elected officials that armed citizens should be required to have level II/III type holsters and mandated retention skill training.
This requirements were NOT added to the final law. I also question how or who would pay for the required training or who'd enforce the new laws.

As posted, open carry does require being more alert & ready to fend off a snatch. With holsters you must address points like speed(open type holsters) and security(retention, SERPA or SFS, etc). I used to think the open style holsters were best for both open and concealed use but as times changed, I can see the value of some designs like the Blackhawk SERPA & Safariland ALS or SFS. They are fast, secure and able to be modified quickly(FBI cant, crossdraw, standard).
Why some firearm ranges or LE training centers would ban the SERPA holsters is what I don't get. I bought a M&P SERPA holster last Dec and it works fine. Even upside down the M&P was fully secure. You can't ask for more than that, . I'd add that I wouldn't carry the SERPA holster in a rough or harsh climate(like SW Asia or the North Pole) but for regular wear or urban use, it's A-OK.

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Old April 26, 2012, 06:58 AM   #40
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hate to say it because I know how everyone feels about them, but a situation where someone is struggling for the gun shows how a magazine disconnect could be a good thing. Obviously as long as it's not a revolver your carrying.
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Old April 26, 2012, 08:00 AM   #41
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I just don't walk around with big money sticking out of my back pocket and at least here in Philly I see carrying a $500 gun (with an even higher street value) as an attractant rather than deterrent.


Say some kid decides to throw a brick at the back of my head: If he hits, free gun for him. If he misses, he gets to run away. It's not like I can legally engage or feasibly detain him after he turns tail.
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Old April 26, 2012, 09:31 AM   #42
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According to the FBI UCRs, around 10 percent of law enforcement officers who are feloniously killed on the job, are killed with their own weapons.

Not all people who open carry are law enforcement officers. But nearly all law enforcement officers open carry. And they
  • use retention holsters, and
  • have training in how to retain the gun.

Re the Serpa, why choose a stupidly bad design when there are so many other non-stupid ones out there? It's not like Serpa is the only possible retention design.

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Old April 26, 2012, 05:02 PM   #43
ClydeFrog
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SERPA: flawed design?....

I disagree with part of the last forum post.
The Blackhawk SERPA holster design is not stupid or flawed, IMO.
As I stated, it's sturdy, secure & the polymer material is easy to care for.
It can also be converted to fit different ways or modes quickly(a leather or synthetic holster may not).
I could see & have seen online video clips of how a Blackhawk SERPA could break or be closed shut with dirt or snow.
As I wrote, if you are not in a desert, rolling around or want a fast, safe concealment/carry holster for a metro area, the SERPA CQC is worth checking.
Many armed professionals also use the Safariland SFS/ALS and Blade-tech Thumb-Drive systems. I wouldn't go around calling those firms stupid or dumb.

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Old April 26, 2012, 05:22 PM   #44
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Yes, I understand that some folks don't see the harm in using a retention design that encourages people to shoot themselves reflexively when drawing the gun under stress. It's unfortunate, but there you have it. The fact that the holster in question comes apart easily, is easy to rip off the belt, and easily jams is just icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:
Many armed professionals also use the Safariland SFS/ALS and Blade-tech Thumb-Drive systems. I wouldn't go around calling those firms stupid or dumb
Neither would I -- since those firms chose to go with a retention design that was not a Serpa.

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Old April 26, 2012, 06:30 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pax
Yes, I understand that some folks don't see the harm in using a retention design that encourages people to shoot themselves reflexively when drawing the gun under stress. It's unfortunate, but there you have it. The fact that the holster in question comes apart easily, is easy to rip off the belt, and easily jams is just icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned....
And to parallel what pax said, Glenn said this here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E, Meyer
...I was making a specific point that Serpas may have an affordance that leads to an ND. It is argued by some that this problem may be solved by practice with where to put your finger.That's a debate from the human factors literature. Practice doesn't solve everything but some gun folks suggest that.

It does go against other literature....
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Old April 26, 2012, 06:41 PM   #46
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Serpa

I've never had any issues with my SERPA. Granted it's for a 1911, so I have the thumb safety too, but I honestly can't see how it would be any easier to have an AD with it than any other holster.
For me, when I grab the gun, and position my finger out along the line of the frame - where I'd put it if there was no holster - it hits the release. When I draw my finger is left - where it started - on the frame above the trigger guard.
Clearly, people have shot themselves using the holster, but I'd guess that has more to do with trying to draw quickly out of an unfamiliar holster than it does with some inherent design flaw.
As far as it getting ripped off easily, has anyone actually tried it or is that just another internet rumor? Maybe mine is different, but the holster attaches to the belt loops with 4 fairly beefy screws. Tightened properly, with a drop of locktite, I don't see them coming out very easily.
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Old April 26, 2012, 07:40 PM   #47
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SERPA duty holster, gun grabs...

If "Pax" is speaking of the SERPA duty holster, I have seen a video clip of how it can be torn completely off a duty belt BUT...
If you watch the clip, it talks the grabber a considerable amount of force to tear the polymer holster off. A armed security or sworn LE could or should be able to deter or defend against the threat. The officer or armed citizen could also deploy a 2nd gun, OC spray or Taser/EDW too. If you aimlessly stand by & let a violent thug grab your firearm you have more problems then the brand you carry.

I'd add that the Safariland SFS or ALS may be a better pick if you feel the weather conditions or work environment(jail, prison, mental health center, court, etc) may lend itself to fights or outbursts/gun snatches.

Clyde
PS: I agree to that a gun owner or sworn LE officer can TRAIN to carry & use the SERPA safely. As the YouTube.com clip of "Tex" shows, it's not the SERPA holster but Tex's improper method that caused a mishap. Tex(the victim) clearly says that in the video.
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Old April 26, 2012, 07:51 PM   #48
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dayman,

Two links for you.

1) How it breaks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv1WLkKZSNE

2) How people shoot themselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDpxVG9XFJc

(That second video is discussing Tex Grebner's well-publicized mishap, which we discussed here on TFL at http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455923)

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Old April 27, 2012, 06:12 AM   #49
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As far as the first video goes, it looks like maybe he's using the one built for a light without a light on the gun? Mine's screwed together, and fits a lot closer to the gun. It's also made out of a very stiff material, so I couldn't come close to twisting it apart like that. I do have the "sportster" model, so maybe that's the difference.

As far as the release goes - where they were using the same exact setup I have - I guess I've finally found an advantage to stubby fingers. My fingers are short enough that they hit the release as intended, so the curling is a non issue for me.

But, it does see that there are definite issues with the holster. I'd probably think about picking something else up if it was the rig that I used on a daily basis.

Last edited by dayman; April 27, 2012 at 07:19 AM.
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Old April 27, 2012, 10:07 AM   #50
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Remember the quote from Glenn in post 45 -- the reference to human factors. That's a real issue with the Sherpa. Why?

Human factor engineering is about designing things in a way that considers human capabilities and limitations to reduce the possibilities for operational errors, especially under stress, and to reduce training requirements. The Sherpa doesn't seem to do that well.

While it is possible to train to use the Sherpa properly and safely, its design makes it especially easy to make a particular, natural and predictable operational error that is dangerous to the user. If you are really good at using it correctly, that will be fine. But it is designed and operated in a way that makes it especially easy to make a particular mistake that can get you hurt.
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