Spin and Flip cocking

'88Scrat · April 20, 2012, 12:11 AM

You see this in old westren movies a lot. The hero fires and spin cocks a lever action in one hand while saving the girl with the other.

I was wondering what the best rifle for this might be. I was thinking along the lines of a Winchester 92 or 94 but its only speculation.

I ask because I worked in a bar for a while and got pretty good at doing tricks with liquor bottles, in class I always spun a pen around my fingers, and my "pocket" knife is a actually a Benchmade 51 balisong (a butterfly knife) that I can do some really cool tricks with. A rifle seems like the next logical step really.

For the record I have no intention of EVER doing this with a loaded rifle but simply knowing how to do it to satisfy my own curiosity has me interested enough to check into it.

Jim Watson · April 20, 2012, 12:33 AM

John Wayne and Chuck Connors did it with '92s.
There is just too much monkey motion in the '94 for it to work very well.
You will note that the Steve McQueen "Mare's Laig" knockoffs are built on '92 actions.

egor20 · April 20, 2012, 12:53 AM

In El Dorado when Cole Thorton is partially paralyzed in his right arm and he uses a Winchester 1892 to twirl in the gun fight at the end of the movie against Nelse McLeod, Jason's hired gun.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/El_Dorado#...ter_Model_1892

bamaranger · April 20, 2012, 01:49 AM

Chuck Conners carbine was shortened to something like 14 in bbl to facilitate his twirling.

Gosh I loved that show.

BigMikey76 · April 20, 2012, 07:29 AM

My favorite example of this was in True Grit when John Wayne was charging down four bad guys with his '92 in his right hand and his revolver in his left holding the reins in his teeth. Classic scene.

As I recall, the lever on John Wayne's rifle had an expanded loop. I am not sure if that was to facilitate spin cocking, or if it was just because he preferred it, but I know the big loop was specifically mentioned at the beginning of El Dorado when the sherriff, J.P. Harrah, said that he had set his up the same way.

**Mike Irwin** · April 20, 2012, 07:36 AM

Story is that John Ford was looking for a gimmick for John Wayne's character during the filming of Stagecoach, and someone came up with the idea of modifying an 1892 to allow it to be spin cocked.

The modification was made, and the first time Wayne tried it the barrel came around, caught him square in the chin and knocked him out cold.

That's when the spin cockers became short-barreled carbines...

BlueTrain · April 20, 2012, 08:03 AM

I believe John Wayne's carbine is in the Warner Brothers museum. You might want to go see it if you're ever in L.A.

Willie Lowman · April 20, 2012, 08:17 AM

What was the shotgun that Ahnold flip-cocked while riding a Harley in Terminator 2?

I taught myself to do something similar with my 14" 590A1. A sort of a open the action, twirl shotgun, thrust gun forward to close action type maneuver. I first did it with a 20" barreled gun that required me to turn sideways so I wouldn't hit my face or shoulder with the barrel... The 14" SBS is much easier.

Kids, don't try this at home.

**Mike Irwin** · April 20, 2012, 10:01 AM

"What was the shotgun that Ahnold flip-cocked while riding a Harley in Terminator 2?"

Probably a Winchester Model 1901.

Could have been an earlier 1887, though.

WV_gunner · April 20, 2012, 11:22 AM

I got a magazine about the gun in terminator 2. All I remember was it was a Wichester 10 gauge.

kraigwy · April 20, 2012, 11:32 AM

I learned at a very early age, that you cannot spin and flip cock a Daisy Red Ryder BB gun.

Dern near broke my fingers.

aarondhgraham · April 20, 2012, 12:02 PM

I think that was a universally learned lesson,,,

No matter how many of us twisted our fingers dang near off of our hands,,,
Every one of us young id-jits had to try it thinking that maybe we just needed to do it harder.

Aarond

aarondhgraham · April 20, 2012, 12:03 PM

Why couldn't it be done with 1876 Winchester rifles,,,
Every time I see it the 1892 is being used.

Aarond

.

DPris · April 20, 2012, 12:28 PM

The film versions involving leverguns have all been large-loop 92s.

The 92 may or may not feed in spincocking, without being altered. The 92s on the Rifleman were altered for feeding blanks reliably.

The more common story about Wayne's Stagecoach gun is that it was devised between Wayne & veteran stuntman Yakima Canutt.

It will work with a large loop 94, as an emergency-only experiment I've done it with a 16-inch .30-30. If one arm's injured, the gun CAN be run with the other.
A Rossi 16-inch .45 Colt 92 would not feed when tried about 14 years ago, dropped rounds on the carpet.

Connors used a 20-inch carbine, there were two Winchesters & one Spanish El Tigre copy used during the show's run. He was tall enough & had long enough arms to pull it off.
He was ambidextrous & could use the carbine with either hand.

Wayn'e original 92 had a short barrel, I've seen sources listing it as 15 inches in .32-20.

The 76 Winchester might be possible, but a much larger & clunkier gun to try it with, and you may run into feeding problems (c'mon, you KNOW it'd be tried with live ammo by somebody).

The toggle link actions are quite different from the later Winchesters, I don't know what kind of stresses would be involved in spincocking one.

The large loop lever is an absolute requirement for spincocking & to that degree of "largeness" there's no other benefit.

It does add room for gloved hands, but that result can be obtained with a far smaller enlarged lever.
Denis

Jim Watson · April 20, 2012, 01:11 PM

A '76 or even a '73 is a heavy gun with a long lever throw.
It would take a weightlifter to twirl a '76.

RedBowTies88 · April 20, 2012, 01:38 PM

Wonder if you could do it with a marlin guide gun?

Strafer Gott · April 20, 2012, 02:44 PM

IIRC Old Iron Jaw played "The Rifleman". I stand by 20 inches.

Deja vu · April 20, 2012, 02:59 PM

I think about trying it with my 1895 (18 inch barrel) but every time I hold it I change my mind.

giaquir · April 20, 2012, 07:18 PM

I don't see how the round chambers
without falling out or jamming.
Just Hollywood stuff

TX Hunter · April 21, 2012, 10:05 AM

Im a John Wayne Fan, and have watched all his Westerns, and a couple of his War Movies. I think the Spin Cocking looks cool, but sounds like it has the potential for danger. Guns are not toys, and real life is not a movie. Everyone needs to remember that. Be Carefull Folks.

Jason_G · April 21, 2012, 10:13 AM

Quote:

I learned at a very early age, that you cannot spin and flip cock a Daisy Red Ryder BB gun.

Dern near broke my fingers.

ROFL!!

I didn't hurt myself, but I did try to do this when I was a kid as well. I wasn't successful either.

Jason

BigMikey76 · April 21, 2012, 01:51 PM

I found a few videos of guys doing it with various rifles, but this one was my favorite because it has a slow motion replay so you can really see the technique. He is using a '94 with a regular loop. I don't see any cartrige being ejected, so I am fairly sure he is not actually cycling rounds, but it still looks pretty cool.

http://vimeo.com/20658310

**Art Eatman** · April 21, 2012, 09:55 PM

Hollywood had lots of money for repair parts and gunsmiths...

Gunplummer · April 21, 2012, 10:05 PM

If you watch the first "Rifleman" show, it is said that the lever closing fires the gun, not the trigger

DPris · April 22, 2012, 12:18 AM

Looks like he's spinning using one finger, never seen anybody do it that way. Strong finger.

On the Rifleman's 92, there was a set screw through the triggerguard that tripped the trigger when the lever closed. The lever didn't fire the gun, as such, it just pulled the trigger on closing.
That allowed Connors to get extreme speed without the danger of puncturing his trigger finger.

A 1961 magazine article on the gun stated Connors could actually run it that fast without the screw, but producers were concerned about a potential injury to his finger that could hold up filming, so the set screw was developed. Along with a plunger above the chamber to keep the blanks from dropping out during spinning.
Denis

April 20, 2012, 12:11 AM	#1
'88Scrat Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2011 Location: Kansas Posts: 204	Spin and Flip cocking You see this in old westren movies a lot. The hero fires and spin cocks a lever action in one hand while saving the girl with the other. I was wondering what the best rifle for this might be. I was thinking along the lines of a Winchester 92 or 94 but its only speculation. I ask because I worked in a bar for a while and got pretty good at doing tricks with liquor bottles, in class I always spun a pen around my fingers, and my "pocket" knife is a actually a Benchmade 51 balisong (a butterfly knife) that I can do some really cool tricks with. A rifle seems like the next logical step really. For the record I have no intention of EVER doing this with a loaded rifle but simply knowing how to do it to satisfy my own curiosity has me interested enough to check into it. __________________ BOOM

April 20, 2012, 12:53 AM	#3
egor20 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2010 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 1,743	In El Dorado when Cole Thorton is partially paralyzed in his right arm and he uses a Winchester 1892 to twirl in the gun fight at the end of the movie against Nelse McLeod, Jason's hired gun. http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/El_Dorado#...ter_Model_1892 __________________ Chief stall mucker and grain chef Country don't mean dumb. Steven King. The Stand

April 20, 2012, 01:49 AM	#4
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 3,640	shorty Chuck Conners carbine was shortened to something like 14 in bbl to facilitate his twirling. Gosh I loved that show.

April 20, 2012, 07:29 AM	#5
BigMikey76 Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Bellevue, NE Posts: 432	My favorite example of this was in True Grit when John Wayne was charging down four bad guys with his '92 in his right hand and his revolver in his left holding the reins in his teeth. Classic scene. As I recall, the lever on John Wayne's rifle had an expanded loop. I am not sure if that was to facilitate spin cocking, or if it was just because he preferred it, but I know the big loop was specifically mentioned at the beginning of El Dorado when the sherriff, J.P. Harrah, said that he had set his up the same way. __________________ “Some people are like Slinkies - not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs.” A gun should be a tool in the hands of a deadly weapon, not a deadly weapon in the hands of a tool.

April 20, 2012, 07:36 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 33,161	Story is that John Ford was looking for a gimmick for John Wayne's character during the filming of Stagecoach, and someone came up with the idea of modifying an 1892 to allow it to be spin cocked. The modification was made, and the first time Wayne tried it the barrel came around, caught him square in the chin and knocked him out cold. That's when the spin cockers became short-barreled carbines... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 20, 2012, 12:33 AM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 9,674	John Wayne and Chuck Connors did it with '92s. There is just too much monkey motion in the '94 for it to work very well. You will note that the Steve McQueen "Mare's Laig" knockoffs are built on '92 actions.

April 20, 2012, 08:03 AM	#7
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 5,809	I believe John Wayne's carbine is in the Warner Brothers museum. You might want to go see it if you're ever in L.A. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

April 20, 2012, 08:17 AM	#8
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 1,939	What was the shotgun that Ahnold flip-cocked while riding a Harley in Terminator 2? I taught myself to do something similar with my 14" 590A1. A sort of a open the action, twirl shotgun, thrust gun forward to close action type maneuver. I first did it with a 20" barreled gun that required me to turn sideways so I wouldn't hit my face or shoulder with the barrel... The 14" SBS is much easier. Kids, don't try this at home. __________________ "No, it's not a silencer. This little doodad is my own invention. I call it a loudener." --Sledge Hammer

April 20, 2012, 10:01 AM	#9
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 33,161	"What was the shotgun that Ahnold flip-cocked while riding a Harley in Terminator 2?" Probably a Winchester Model 1901. Could have been an earlier 1887, though. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 20, 2012, 11:22 AM	#10
WV_gunner Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2011 Location: WV Posts: 444	I got a magazine about the gun in terminator 2. All I remember was it was a Wichester 10 gauge.

April 20, 2012, 11:32 AM	#11
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 8,619	I learned at a very early age, that you cannot spin and flip cock a Daisy Red Ryder BB gun. Dern near broke my fingers. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Oct '78 Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

April 20, 2012, 12:02 PM	#12
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 6,358	Hello Kraigwy,,, I think that was a universally learned lesson,,, No matter how many of us twisted our fingers dang near off of our hands,,, Every one of us young id-jits had to try it thinking that maybe we just needed to do it harder. Aarond __________________ Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Combat: "A Silent Cry" Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time) Last edited by aarondhgraham; April 20, 2012 at 02:46 PM.

April 20, 2012, 12:03 PM	#13
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 6,358	Serious question though,,, Why couldn't it be done with 1876 Winchester rifles,,, Every time I see it the 1892 is being used. Aarond . __________________ Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Combat: "A Silent Cry" Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

April 20, 2012, 12:28 PM	#14
DPris Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 3,780	The film versions involving leverguns have all been large-loop 92s. The 92 may or may not feed in spincocking, without being altered. The 92s on the Rifleman were altered for feeding blanks reliably. The more common story about Wayne's Stagecoach gun is that it was devised between Wayne & veteran stuntman Yakima Canutt. It will work with a large loop 94, as an emergency-only experiment I've done it with a 16-inch .30-30. If one arm's injured, the gun CAN be run with the other. A Rossi 16-inch .45 Colt 92 would not feed when tried about 14 years ago, dropped rounds on the carpet. Connors used a 20-inch carbine, there were two Winchesters & one Spanish El Tigre copy used during the show's run. He was tall enough & had long enough arms to pull it off. He was ambidextrous & could use the carbine with either hand. Wayn'e original 92 had a short barrel, I've seen sources listing it as 15 inches in .32-20. The 76 Winchester might be possible, but a much larger & clunkier gun to try it with, and you may run into feeding problems (c'mon, you KNOW it'd be tried with live ammo by somebody). The toggle link actions are quite different from the later Winchesters, I don't know what kind of stresses would be involved in spincocking one. The large loop lever is an absolute requirement for spincocking & to that degree of "largeness" there's no other benefit. It does add room for gloved hands, but that result can be obtained with a far smaller enlarged lever. Denis

April 20, 2012, 01:11 PM	#15
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 9,674	A '76 or even a '73 is a heavy gun with a long lever throw. It would take a weightlifter to twirl a '76.

April 20, 2012, 01:38 PM	#16
RedBowTies88 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2011 Location: 609 NJ Posts: 651	Wonder if you could do it with a marlin guide gun? __________________ "...with liberty and justice for all." (Must be 21. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states.)

April 20, 2012, 02:44 PM	#17
Strafer Gott Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 880	IIRC Old Iron Jaw played "The Rifleman". I stand by 20 inches.

April 20, 2012, 02:59 PM	#18
Deja vu Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Location: Border of Idaho & Montana Posts: 1,751	I think about trying it with my 1895 (18 inch barrel) but every time I hold it I change my mind. __________________ Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull. all 21 of my guns are 45/70 govt 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple

April 20, 2012, 07:18 PM	#19
giaquir Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Deerfield,New Hampshire Posts: 323	I don't see how the round chambers without falling out or jamming. Just Hollywood stuff

April 21, 2012, 10:05 AM	#20
TX Hunter Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2010 Location: East Texas USA Posts: 1,757	Im a John Wayne Fan, and have watched all his Westerns, and a couple of his War Movies. I think the Spin Cocking looks cool, but sounds like it has the potential for danger. Guns are not toys, and real life is not a movie. Everyone needs to remember that. Be Carefull Folks.

April 21, 2012, 01:51 PM	#22
BigMikey76 Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Bellevue, NE Posts: 432	I found a few videos of guys doing it with various rifles, but this one was my favorite because it has a slow motion replay so you can really see the technique. He is using a '94 with a regular loop. I don't see any cartrige being ejected, so I am fairly sure he is not actually cycling rounds, but it still looks pretty cool. http://vimeo.com/20658310 __________________ “Some people are like Slinkies - not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs.” A gun should be a tool in the hands of a deadly weapon, not a deadly weapon in the hands of a tool.

April 21, 2012, 09:55 PM	#23
Art Eatman Staff Lead Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX, USA Posts: 20,952	Hollywood had lots of money for repair parts and gunsmiths... __________________ You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!

April 21, 2012, 10:05 PM	#24
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 1,088	If you watch the first "Rifleman" show, it is said that the lever closing fires the gun, not the trigger

April 22, 2012, 12:18 AM	#25
DPris Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 3,780	Looks like he's spinning using one finger, never seen anybody do it that way. Strong finger. On the Rifleman's 92, there was a set screw through the triggerguard that tripped the trigger when the lever closed. The lever didn't fire the gun, as such, it just pulled the trigger on closing. That allowed Connors to get extreme speed without the danger of puncturing his trigger finger. A 1961 magazine article on the gun stated Connors could actually run it that fast without the screw, but producers were concerned about a potential injury to his finger that could hold up filming, so the set screw was developed. Along with a plunger above the chamber to keep the blanks from dropping out during spinning. Denis