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Old April 19, 2012, 07:15 PM   #1
johnwilliamson062
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Law Enforcement NFA rules

I am looking for more info on Law enforcement NFA rules. It seems to me that a police department is exempt from the MG ban. As such, why isn't there a town where everyone is a police officer and the MGs are issued by the town police department? Incorporating a town doesn't seem to be that difficult and considering the cost of full autos it seems a few people wanting to buy could go together on some land and incorporate one.
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Old April 19, 2012, 10:25 PM   #2
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I believe most states require law enforcement officers to be certified as such by the state and to meet specified training requirements such as P.O.S.T. Might be a bit difficult for Flatrock (population 292) to justify to the state why it needs 197 LEOs in its PD.
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Old April 19, 2012, 10:53 PM   #3
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A while back the police chief of a small town (undisclosed location) deputized some of his gun friends and the "department" bought a dozen machineguns to play with. But MG transfers even for police have to go through BATFE and they became just a bit suspicious, and shut things down. IIRC, the chief lost his job and was brought to trial in federal court on some charge or other, but I now forget what it was.

In other words, the OP's idea sounds good, but it probably won't work.

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Old April 20, 2012, 07:07 AM   #4
johnwilliamson062
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I wonder if anyone can find the case for that. What charges were brought specifically.
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Old April 20, 2012, 02:35 PM   #5
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This is a fantastic idea! Problem is, I believe the feds would shut it down as James stated. They'd probably be afraid that people were living their lives as free people and accuse all the townspeople of being 'extremeist' or militia members.
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Old April 20, 2012, 03:46 PM   #6
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While a novel idea that I have heard before it would be difficult for it to pass a reasonable smell test, dont ya think?

While LE NFA firearms are less restricted then a private person, there are still restrictions, and the possibility of fine or jail time if a huge issue comes up. Dont fool yourself.

I am unsure of the incident that James is mentioned. You can read up about Blackwater and Camden County NC Sheriffs dept. Also there was the case a few years back about from IL as well....Let me find a couple of news articles and I will be back...

http://www.dailyadvance.com/opinion/...s-probe-781213

http://www.bob-owens.com/2011/11/ex-...or-blackwater/

http://www.policeone.com/legal/artic...-Ill-troopers/

As you see charges were filed, though beyond these articles and my poor memory, I cant comment on what hapened in court. This was heavily discussed in LE circles, at least around here when the Camden County deal came out.

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Old April 22, 2012, 02:21 AM   #7
johnwilliamson062
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both of those articles address situations outside the scenario I am outlining. In both situations a third party used this loophole to obtain weapons that were in effect not owned by the police department. In one case the weapons were stored at Blackwater's armory and were not in use by the police department and in the other the weapons were owned by officers personally, not by the department.

The state certification would be a pain, but given the cost of full autos AND the valuable training included, I think many wouldn't mind it.
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Old April 22, 2012, 11:17 AM   #8
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Those are the only public cases that I know of right off hand.

Just to give you an idea how things are locally...

Dept owned SBS, SBR, and automatic firearms locally are restricted pretty well. Basically if you are issued one (not a pool gun) and have a take home car, it must be secured in the vehicle locked rack, including off duty. If you dont have a take home car, it must be secured at the office. As far as pool guns, at my dept, if I want to take the m16 out to practice, I have to have Chief approval and take a dept vehicle, with the m16, to the range, and back. Any non-local training must be signed off on by the chief, and a note stating such must be with the firearm while it is out of town.

The reasons are above my paygrade, but from what I understand it is to keep well within the required "official use" that law enforcement firearms are subject to. I know some of these policies are stricter then the ATF may require, it is to keep everyone out of trouble.

Other areas may have more or less restrictions, but this is the norm around here from all I have run in to.

Btw, fyi, even the dept owned Glock 22's are only allowed out of town to go straight home, and back, unless an officer is on official business.

As to the state certification, here in NC, BLET is around 620 hours, plus the yearly training, which is around 30 hours for the mere basics. Other things that would have to be looked in to beyond what has been stated, is a system for oversight, and also insurance. Several departments here have reserve and part time positions, but even then, its usually required to "donate 'X' many hours a year" to offset some of the basic cost in order to ensure a person just isnt filling a spot to keep their certification. If your interested in getting in to law enforcement, try it and see how things go.

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Old April 22, 2012, 01:07 PM   #9
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Along the idea of "loopholes", what's happening with the Montana Firearms Freedom Act, where things like suppressors supposedly wouldn't be subject to BATF taxes and regulation if they were made in Montana, sold in Montana and only used in Montana? It was signed into law over two years ago, but I haven't heard of any companies actually selling "intrastate sale" suppressors yet.
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Old April 22, 2012, 01:55 PM   #10
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ScottRiqui, probably a dearth of people willing to be a test case in federal court.
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Old April 22, 2012, 08:13 PM   #11
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Talked to a local LEO about getting into law enforcement a week ago. Not interested as a career. Not any reserve locally.

On Montana, I haven't heard for a bit, but it seemed someone was planning to test it by manufacturing a while back. The AG of the state requested SCOTUS issue a decision on it I believe, but they refused.

Quote:
]

On September 29, 2010, U.S. District Court Judge Donald Molloy dismissed the suit "for lack of subject matter jurisdiction and failure to state a claim."[13]

The Plaintiffs have filed an appeal[14] with the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.
-Wikipedia
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Old April 22, 2012, 11:00 PM   #12
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Also, it seems that ccwforall.com that was discussed on calguns is also conected to montana in some way, in order to "go around" the concealed carry permit in Ca, by charging a fee to become a law enforcement officer some how in montana.

In either scenario, I would not want to be the test case.

OP,

Beyond the fact that law enforcement are allowed to buy new manufacture automatic weapons, what would make you feel they are less restricted or available to "any" officer? Just curious...
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Old April 23, 2012, 04:57 AM   #13
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Quote:
Talked to a local LEO about getting into law enforcement a week ago. Not interested as a career. Not any reserve locally.
No Reserve Officer positions available, even within a 50 mile radius?

Here's something else to think about...

To get on most Departments as a Reserve, you are scrutinized just as much as a person testing for a full time position. If you put in as a Reserve, you can count on the following:

a. A written exam.
b. Quite possibly a physical agility exam.
c. An oral board.
d. An extensive background investigation.
e. A polygraph exam.
f. Psych evaluation (usually, MMPI and a State addendum, plus interview with psychologist).
g. Medical screening.
h. Final interview with the Chief.

Then, IF you are accepted...

a. Attending a Reserve Academy (if you're lucky) or a full State certification (if you're not).
b. Equipment issue (few Departments) to dropping almost 3000 bucks on equipment (most Departments)

Now, here's the kicker....

In my State (Washington), ownership of full auto is prohibited by private parties. I can purchase select fire by going through the whole purchasing process and paying full price, just like any other NFA purchase. HOWEVER...the firearm can be used for official duty, and remains under the guardianship of the Department. If I move to another Department, transfer of the firearm is ONLY authorized if the gaining Dept. will accept it. If they do NOT--or I leave law enforcement--the firearm stays with the Department, and I have no expectation of reimbursement.
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Old April 23, 2012, 07:31 AM   #14
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It is highly unlikely that any agency will entrust it's selective fire weapons to any reserve officer. If it does, it will probably be to a highly trusted retired officer who returns as a reserve.

Form your own town and create a town marshal. Then buy a couple and share them in the presence of the Marshal. Store them at the Marshal's office.
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Old April 23, 2012, 03:26 PM   #15
johnwilliamson062
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Quote:
even within a 50 mile radius?
Are you kidding? Do you know how much gas costs? There are other things I could volunteer in without the gas expense and get similar satisfaction. Public departments in my area are very restricted on volunteer use due to union contract restrictions.
Being a reserve officer in an already established department isn't going to get this job done. No city is going to pick up the liability. Buy a farm with a few people who are interested for various reasons, incorporate, get the certification(Sinclair Community College is local and cheap for OPOTA which is less hours than most states).
Not worht all the trouble for the full autos alone, but if anyone who completes the certification can have full autos to play with, even if under some relatively light restrictions, such as having to sign them out, then I think it would sweeten the pot a bit.

In my state private citizens can own NFA items.
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Old April 24, 2012, 04:12 AM   #16
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Sounds like more trouble than just buying a transferable.
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Old April 24, 2012, 06:28 AM   #17
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Are you kidding? Do you know how much gas costs?
Yep. My commute to work is 68 miles....one way.
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Old April 24, 2012, 09:44 AM   #18
Jim Watson
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Quote:
It is highly unlikely that any agency will entrust it's selective fire weapons to any reserve officer.
Actually I knew a guy who used that exact loophole.
He was a county reserve deputy and schmoozed the sheriff into ordering a Thompson M1A1 on the department letterhead at the LE price of $250.
He reimbursed the department the money and the sheriff issued the gun exclusively to him.
He was killed in a car wreck. I presume the Thompson is moldering away in a closet at the courthouse while the department has moved on to more modern long guns.

This was an isolated case and does not mean the OP and his buds could do something en masse. It was over 30 years ago before the 1986 repression and AWB, too.
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Old April 24, 2012, 12:25 PM   #19
johnwilliamson062
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Well, if it was before 1986 I don't see what exactly he was accomplishing.
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Old April 24, 2012, 04:59 PM   #20
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at the LE price of $250.
That's what he accomplished.
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Old April 24, 2012, 05:00 PM   #21
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Title to that Thompson belongs to the Sheriff. So upon the fellow's demise it should have been returned to the issuing agency. Possession and title are two different things.
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Old April 24, 2012, 09:00 PM   #22
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Like I said:

Quote:
I presume the Thompson is moldering away in a closet at the courthouse while the department has moved on to more modern long guns.
I think the Thompson was in his car at the crash... an MG Midget hit by a truck running a stop sign with the driver on bennies. The responding PD was said to have been picking up scattered guns for a while, he had the habit of carrying everything he even thought he might want to shoot anytime soon.
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Old April 24, 2012, 09:14 PM   #23
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I would think the PD would return it to the Sheriff. SFPD learned from me that one of their Thompsons came from the Federal Prison System. They have no idea how they acquired it. It must have been decades ago when Alcatraz was a prison. They returned it to the Feds.
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