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Old April 20, 2012, 06:26 PM   #51
Webleymkv
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When you plan to use +P+, consider the gun.
Also consider the ammo. I'm perfectly comfortable shooting certain +P+ loadings like Winchester Ranger 127gr T-Series, Federal 115gr Hi-Shok, and Hirtenberger 100gr JSP in a modern, full-sized handgun because I know that all of those loadings were designed specifically for handguns. I would not, however, shoot other +P+ ammo like Hirtenberger 124gr FMJ in any handgun because I know that particular ammo was designed for submachine guns only.

Quote:
There is not any upper limit on the pressures generated by a +P+, since it is not a SAAMI regulated design. So how much of a magnum load do you have? You don't know and neither do I.
Actually, in the case of my preferred 9mm +P+ loading, I do know because Winchester tells me. Its max. average pressure is 42,000 CUP which is approximately (there is no exact conversion of CUP to PSI) 46,000 PSI which, in turn, is approximately 30% over maximum standard pressure and approximately 19% over maximum +P pressure.

http://winchesterle.com/Lists%2FCata...13%2FRA9TA.pdf

It is worthy of note, however, that I only shoot this ammunition in very limited amounts in a full-sized handgun of fairly recent manufacture (CZ-75B which was purchased new in 2004) and that a Wolff extra power recoil spring has been installed (16lbs vs. 14lbs factory).
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Old April 20, 2012, 06:46 PM   #52
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Bart Noir

When you plan to use +P+, consider the gun.

There is not any upper limit on the pressures generated by a +P+, since it is not a SAAMI regulated design. So how much of a magnum load do you have? You don't know and neither do I.

Your particular pistol may be quickly worn out by that unknown high-pressure cartridge. And you don't know until something breaks. And that could be very bad if it breaks just as you need it for a real-deal self-defense two way bullet exchange.

Considering the 9mm pistols I have, I will only shoot the +P+ (any brand or load) in the S&W 5906 or the Ruger 9mm Speed Six. They both have lots of steel and are rugged.

As for any other 9mm pistol, I like the 124 grain in +P, or maybe even just standard pressure for the smallest lightest ones. I'm a happy new owner of a Kahr CW9 and am still finding the upper limit of what I want to shoot in it.
Good advice as who wants to unecessarily wear out any gun nowadays with the dollar not buying what it used to.

Personally with my Kel-Tec P11 they recommend 'limited' use of +P rated ammo. Thus, I find something that I know will reliably feed by firing several expensive boxes absent a failure (right now my PD Round of choice is Hornady's Critical Duty not to be confused with their Critical Defense as the weights and general technology of the two differ). Once I have found that PD ammo of which I stake my life on, I no longer fire any further amount of +P ammo with the exception of a few rounds here and there throughout the course of the year.

-Cheers
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Old April 20, 2012, 10:31 PM   #53
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I like Corbon DPX in all my autos 380, 9mm or 45
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Old April 21, 2012, 01:47 AM   #54
Mikey Idaho
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Hornady Critical Defense or occasionally TAP in my firearms of every type.

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Old April 21, 2012, 05:16 PM   #55
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Quote:
You'll find your answer HERE [ammo.ar15.com] from the experts. Everything else is just personal opinion

Quote:

Barnes XPB 115gr HP (35515) loaded by Cor-Bon (DPX09115)
Winchester Partition Gold 124gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr JHP +P+ (RA9TA)
Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester Bonded 147gr JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P (53617)
Speer Gold Dot 147gr JHP (53619)
Remington Golden Saber 147gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Federal Tactical 124gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal Tactical 135gr JHP +P (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)

My personal preference is W-W 147gr & 127gr +P+ Ranger-T, Remington 147gr Golden Saber or Federal 147gr HST
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Old April 22, 2012, 12:30 AM   #56
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I am going to pull a couple of quotes from the thread. They are all from different people.

Quote:
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr JHP +P+ (RA9TA)
A lot of people love this round. If you go check out the Winchester LEO site, the 124gr+p actually out performs it in their test. Might be worth a look to save wear and tear on your game.

Quote:
Keep in mind that we are not shooing through barriers, nor want to penetrate them in an SD situation.
Why not?

I've told the story before of my friend. His significant other's ex pulled in to the drive way, hopped out, stood behind the door of his truck, and opened fire. My friend had to fire through the door to defend his life.

If I'm hunkered down with my family in the master bedroom, and a guy is trying to kick his way in, what should I do? I vote shoot through the door.

****

I have three criteria these days.
1. Cycles and works fine in the gun
2. I am accurate with the round
3. Meets FBI standards
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Last edited by MikeNice81; April 22, 2012 at 03:21 AM.
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Old April 22, 2012, 05:13 AM   #57
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+10 on Corbon DPX
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Old April 22, 2012, 04:34 PM   #58
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MikeNice81

Quote:
If I'm hunkered down with my family in the master bedroom, and a guy is trying to kick his way in, what should I do? I vote shoot through the door.

I more like my .38spl +P for my carry, in a light snub, or sometimes a SP101 3" .357mag loaded with good old Rem 125g SJHPs for HD. If I think I needed more power in .357, I'd get my Buffalo Bore 125g hp rated at 1700fps/802lbs, or more like 1300-1500/468-624lbs out of my 3" barrel.

I see your point and agree, but for me the most powerful 9mm is a 9.1mm=.357mag.

TBS, let me get back on topic. For HD, I also have a CZ75B 9mm. I load it to shoot the first 7-8 shots GDHP 124g +Ps, the next 7-8 shots are FMJ of the NATO fashion, mostly Fiocchi standard, +Ps, or +P+ what ever is closest to me when loading my mag.

If those aren't enough, well, say hello to the most powerful handgun in the World, and I just blow there head off. And the ammo loaded is not M29 rated! Say good night gracie!
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Old April 22, 2012, 05:10 PM   #59
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Barrel Length

Is it safe to say in general that the specs/performance of the PD ammo mentioned in this thread are based on service-size guns instead of the compact models that most carry for CCW? I know, for instance, that the Critical Duty ammunition which I really like is 'not' recommended for compact guns which kind of defeats its purpose for me....

-Cheers
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Old April 22, 2012, 08:25 PM   #60
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Best Ammo.

Thanks,Rampant Colt

That article was a real eye-opener for me.

I have been a gun nut for over 50 years and

was surprised how behind I am by not keeping up

to date.


Thanks,
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Old April 22, 2012, 10:13 PM   #61
MikeNice81
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Quote:
Is it safe to say in general that the specs/performance of the PD ammo mentioned in this thread are based on service-size guns instead of the compact models that most carry for CCW?
There is only one 9mm load specified to be for short barrel guns, that I know about. That is the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel load. Other wise the specs could be from service guns or test barrels.

I carry a CZ P-07 with a 3.8" barrel. So, I don't worry too much.

Quote:
I know, for instance, that the Critical Duty ammunition which I really like is 'not' recommended for compact guns which kind of defeats its purpose for me.
It defeats the purpose for many departments as well. A lot of departments issue compact handguns to smaller stature officers and detectives. I know my department issues the M&P 9c to several officers. At least three other departments in my area issue compacts to several officers.
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Old April 23, 2012, 08:05 PM   #62
Webleymkv
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Quote:
Quote:
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr JHP +P+ (RA9TA)

A lot of people love this round. If you go check out the Winchester LEO site, the 124gr+p actually out performs it in their test. Might be worth a look to save wear and tear on your game.
That depends on your definition of "outperform" I suppose. In Winchester's testing, the 127gr +P+ T-Series outpenetrated both the 124gr +P T-Series and 124gr +P bonded in bare gelatin. In the heavy cloth test, the 127gr +P+ T-Series outpenetrated the 124gr +P T-Series and expanded significantly more than the 124gr +P Bonded.

http://winchesterle.com/SiteCollecti...20Protocol.pdf
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Old April 23, 2012, 10:45 PM   #63
MikeNice81
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12.2" and .7" for the +p and 12.3" and .64" for the +p+. I go for the extra expansion.

Through denim the +P is 13.9" and .67". The +p+ is 12.2" and .68". I will go with the extra 1.7" of penetration.

Through heavy cloth the +p is 13.3" and .68". The +p+ is 12.2" and .68". I will go for the extra penetration.

Through wallboard the +p is 14" and .66". The +p+ is 12.1" and .66". Extra penetration might work against it here.

The +p+ really only has an advantage against plywood and steel. It is even behind the +p after penetrating auto glass.

The +p+ is only a clear winner in two areas and arguably better against bare gelatin. When it comes to clothing material the +p is a clear winner. That is why I said it outperforms the +p+ version.

I am not a fan of the Ranger Bonded in 124gr+p. It seems like it would be too likely to produce a "ice pick" wound while overpenetrating.

If I was going to buy Winchester Ranger ammo again I would probably go with the 147gr T series. To me it looks like a nearly perfect compromise between expansion and penetration.

I do find it completely disturbing that Winchester has two different sets of results depending on which of their sites you visit. I visited the comparison tool linked in my post. Then I went to yours. That actually makes me not want to buy anything from Winchester's Ranger line.

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollec...law_bullit.swf
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Last edited by MikeNice81; April 23, 2012 at 10:50 PM.
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Old April 24, 2012, 06:19 PM   #64
Webleymkv
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Winchester redesigned the T-Series bullet a few years ago (likely under marketing pressure from the Federal HST). The link you posted had been on Winchester's site for years while the one I posted was put up more recently (I can no longer find the link you posted through Winchester's site). I suspect that the data in your link is for the "old" T-Series while that in mine is for the "new" T-Series (notice that the bonded bullet data is much closer). "New" and "old" Rangers can be differentiated by the boxflap: "old" with say "SXT" while "new" will say "T-Series".
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Old April 25, 2012, 06:06 PM   #65
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Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm(9x19mm), SIG Sauer....

When I purchased my new M&P 9x19mm full size, the S&W manual stated NOT to fire any +P+ 9mm rounds.
I also saw on SIG's main website they state not to shoot +P+ either.

I used Ranger T 127gr +P+ for my 9x19mm duty pistols but I plan to switch to Hornady Critical Duty 135gr +P later on.
The Hornady specs & ballistics are impressive and as posted above, you can't always dictate or know where a lethal force incident will occur.
Being able to use a 9x19mm & have it defend me or others w/o needing to hose down a subject with weak loads is what's important to me.
There are several well made 9x19mm rounds now but you need to pick what you think works best.

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Old April 25, 2012, 07:40 PM   #66
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+p+ means nothing to SAMMI, I will never shoot it in any of my firearms.
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Old April 25, 2012, 11:04 PM   #67
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I won't shoot +p+ ammo in any of my guns.
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Old July 20, 2012, 11:54 AM   #68
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I am about to buy some new SD ammo for the Kahr CM9. I had read Chuck Hawks article on self defense loads and have used the CorBon 115gr +P for some time. I am now reading here and there that that is outdated material. while I do not really want to go to 147gr in that small a handgun, what is the general concensus with the CorBon 115 compared to some others...such as the HST in 124? Catch me up to date.
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Old July 20, 2012, 08:59 PM   #69
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A lot of Khar CM9 owners, including myself, shoot Speer 124 gr. Gold Dot +P. The little gun seems to like it and it is a very good performing bullet. YMMV.
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Old July 21, 2012, 08:50 AM   #70
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My EDC is a Kahr PM9 .. tried +p loads but they are just not controllable for me in such a light gun ... I use Hornady standard pressure Critical Defense, which feeds perfectly, is as accurate as I can shoot it and does not produce the recoil issues ...
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Old July 21, 2012, 09:30 AM   #71
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Hornady CD or Remington Golden Sabres.

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Old July 21, 2012, 10:34 AM   #72
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Like others have stated and identified, there are literally a plethora of outstanding 9mm loads for SD. Definitely great to have that massive selection available, but this mandates that you do your homework as everybody and their brother are in the market. Much depends on barrel length and other factors (all subject to debate) so there will never be that 'one fits all' solution absent FMJ as I see it.

Check out Hornady's Critical Duty 135gr load. I really like the 'happy-medium' of the grains/expansion here as I did want to go either of the extreme ends of the spectrum (<115gr or 147gr) at least for SD purposes.

-Cheers
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Old July 21, 2012, 10:40 AM   #73
Dragline45
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Quote:
If I'm hunkered down with my family in the master bedroom, and a guy is trying to kick his way in, what should I do? I vote shoot through the door.
Just wana point out this could get you thrown in jail. We specifically covered this during my certification course a few years ago. Unless the guy is shooting at you through the door himself you cannot shoot at someone through a closed door. But hey if you get chased into a room by a guy with a gun or knife and hes trying to knock the door down, most people would be hard pressed not to shoot.

as for my 9mm round of choice, I like Gold Dots by Speer. I use them in my .380 too.
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Old July 21, 2012, 08:19 PM   #74
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I went ahead and bought another box of Cor Bon 115gr +P 9mm. I'll look into some of the others soon, but I figured this is a great round so I'll stick with it for awhile. I took the Sig P220 and my new Kahr CM9 down for a little quick-range-time on the way home from work. The Sig, of course ate up everything I threw at it. I had in one 10 round magazine some Glasers that were probably 20 years old, some Winchester Ranger T's, and some FMJ's of different brands. Never even flinched...just ate it all up. What was really great, is that the CM9 shot a few Cor Bon 115's that I had from a previous box, along with some HydroShoks and an assortment of cheap FMJ's. It didn't have a hiccup as well.
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Old July 22, 2012, 10:24 AM   #75
MikeNice81
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Drag, in my state once they attempt to enter the home unlawfully it becomes stand your ground. If the person has entered the home illegally (and is trying to enter the bedroom by force) they don't think he is coming for tea and crumpets. The law pretty much clears me unless they can prove I instigated the situation.

Each state has a different set of laws and they are always in flux. Each person needs to become very familliar with the laws in their state.
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