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Old April 12, 2012, 06:53 PM   #1
sandman_nv
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So Confused!!!

So, was thinking about selling one or more of my C&Bs on this forum as I can see it is done frequently by other members, but I have become confused and mired in all of the ATF legalese gobbledegook.

Specifically, from the ATF website:


Quote:
Q: What qualifies as an antique firearm?

As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term “antique firearm” means —



any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica —
is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘antique firearm’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
Ok, I can see the C&Bs fall under the "antique firearm" definition. Yay! But...


Quote:
Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]
OK, confusion here... does this mean one can only sell a C&B to a FFL Licensed person?


Quote:
Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]
OK, reads like any such C&B sale cannot be shipped via USPS which is the way I considered most convenient.


So, what am I missing here?

Please help this noob understand the process of selling and shipping C&Bs. If you can help me, perhaps this can also serve to educate any future novices who might have the same concerns.

tl:dr. sorry about that
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Old April 12, 2012, 07:05 PM   #2
arcticap
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman_nv
So, what am I missing here?
What you're missing is that black powder guns are not considered to be the same as firearms but you're referring to firearms laws as if they were.
The Fed's don't consider them to be the same as firearms, the Post Office doesn't consider them to be the same as firearms, some states do but most states don't for the purpose of merchandise transactions.

Last edited by arcticap; April 12, 2012 at 07:13 PM.
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Old April 12, 2012, 07:14 PM   #3
mykeal
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As arcticap correctly states, the key is the use of the word 'firearm' in the two regulations that confuse you. Antique firearms are not considered firearms by BATFE, so any reference to firearms, without the adjective antique in front of it, does not apply to antique firearms.
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Old April 12, 2012, 08:01 PM   #4
DPris
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ATF doesn't care & neither does the PO.
Sell & mail all you want, as long as there are no local ordinances that prohibit.
Denis
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Old April 12, 2012, 08:08 PM   #5
gunsmokeTPF
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Just don't send to NYC!!!!!
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Old April 12, 2012, 09:13 PM   #6
mykeal
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You can send anywhere you want. It's the receiver that has to deal with state/local laws and ordinances.
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Old April 12, 2012, 10:23 PM   #7
sandman_nv
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AH HA!

Ahhhhhhh, ok. I get it now

Thanks for all your replies!
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Old April 12, 2012, 11:27 PM   #8
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NYC doesn't care what the Feds allow. Once it's in someone's hand in the city a cap & ball in their book is a gun. I believe even an attempt to mail it to NYC is a problem. A pre '98 to them is a gun. All guns, including handguns and long guns in NYC must be registered. PC Kelly and Mayor Bloomberg ain't fool'n around. You're dealing with a nutty town. A loaded illegal gun gets you 2 years in the joint, period. Don't listen to me, talk to the professional football player who accidentally shot himself in the leg in a city nightclub with his legally registered in Fla. gun. Say hello for me, cause I think he may have another year left in his sentence.

Everywhere else in NY a c & b is legal. To load it you must get a permit first and register it as a handgun and that's in the entire state. As a matter of fact a pre '98 cartridge handgun in NYS is considered an antique and legal to possess without a license only if the calibre is obsolete. Only problem is there's a grey area in the law and no one commits to which ones they are. Quote to them what the ATF says is legal under federal law and the authorities will laugh in your face while throwing the cuffs on you.

No ammo, open assist knives, no B-B guns, no guns period, except to an FFL are allowed. Well, you can always try and let everyone know how you make out, after all what do I know being retired NYPD? Then again, I've been out quite a while and maybe NYC's become an accepting gun loving city since then. Lots of luck in your endeavors sandman. Just remember, this ain't Henderson!
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Old April 13, 2012, 04:24 AM   #9
Doc Hoy
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Well...

...depending upon what it is, you could send it to me.


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Old April 13, 2012, 07:30 AM   #10
4V50 Gary
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Noble fellow, Doc Hoy. We should all have friends like him who are so willing to save us from the law.
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Old April 13, 2012, 08:41 AM   #11
Doc Hoy
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Guys....

....It is very difficult but I am willing to make the sacrifice.
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My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
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Old April 13, 2012, 09:37 AM   #12
Andy Griffith
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I'll just be a bit more noble and pay for the shipping to me.

If you have some that need to find a good, loving home and don't want to get in trouble with the law in your jurisdiction.
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Old April 13, 2012, 11:39 AM   #13
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Quote:
...depending upon what it is, you could send it to me.
Being a lil picky are we Doc?
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Old April 13, 2012, 02:18 PM   #14
gunsmokeTPF
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It's an honor to be appreciated by such a plethera of knowledgeable and extremely mature senior members of an apparent private club. Even at my age I can see there's much more for me to learn and I will surely try to do my best.

It just makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside to help any well intentioned law abiding citizen not to make a mistake, which would cause them to be given a degrading cavity search, while incarcerated. But even I at times can be mistaken and when not sure about something will say that.

Being accepted as one of the good old boys is a wonderful thing, but I think showing a little respect, or courtesy by addressing statements regarding my posts to me directly would be more of the man thing to do. It's been just lovely.
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Old April 13, 2012, 02:50 PM   #15
zullo74
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Hey gunsmoke....
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Old April 13, 2012, 02:56 PM   #16
gunsmokeTPF
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Hello dere zullo
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Old April 13, 2012, 10:14 PM   #17
sandman_nv
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All of you folks are awesome in both knowledge and humor.

p.s. NY gets NO guns from me!
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Old April 13, 2012, 10:18 PM   #18
gunsmokeTPF
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Now that's intelligent!
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Old April 14, 2012, 04:33 AM   #19
Doc Hoy
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......

What humor?
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Old April 14, 2012, 12:24 PM   #20
gunsmokeTPF
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What's funny is reading the poor attempts at humor by some. After all, humor is in the eye of the beholder. Since the subject discussed has come to a good conclusion closing this thread down would now be justified and for some should be hysterical!
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Old April 14, 2012, 03:06 PM   #21
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Quote:
the poor attempts at humor
Poor?
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Old April 14, 2012, 04:53 PM   #22
gunsmokeTPF
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OK, now finally that's what I call funny!
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Old April 14, 2012, 05:55 PM   #23
mykeal
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At least as funny as...

...the pot calling the kettle a disparaging term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anon
I think showing a little respect, or courtesy by addressing statements regarding my posts to me directly would be more of the man thing to do.
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Old April 14, 2012, 07:47 PM   #24
gunsmokeTPF
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The pot calling the kettle black? My oh my, that sure came outta left field. My wife like most woman just has to get in the last word, even when she's not part of the conversation. In a nice way I hope that's direct enough and ends now, since the original subject matter is no longer being discussed? This thread no longer serves a useful purpose.

Last edited by gunsmokeTPF; April 14, 2012 at 08:06 PM.
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Old April 14, 2012, 08:27 PM   #25
Hawg
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Quote:
In a nice way I hope that's direct enough and ends now, since the original subject matter is no longer being discussed? This thread no longer serves a useful purpose.
Sounds like somebody wants the thread closed so he can get off the hot seat.
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