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Old April 12, 2012, 06:33 PM   #51
Frank Ettin
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It's interesting to see that some folks don't seem to see any options between "don't get involved" and "come out with guns blazing."

Folks might want to give some serious thought to ways in which you could help without necessarily putting yourself at much risk.
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Old April 12, 2012, 06:44 PM   #52
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CNIMROD:

It looks like that "study" is slated for publication in the near future ... usually journal articles are not allowed to be published by the author in other venues, so it isn't likely to be available. All that aside, it has also been shown that when people are exposed to images of a certain shape, that they find those images in other contexts ... the fact that they are having a test subject hold a toy gun simply HAS to put that image in their mind ... and all the moreso if the subject doesn't usually interact with firearms. It shouldn't surprise anyone that with that strong of a suggestion, that there would be a bias in how they perceive images. The fact, however, that the subject was also wearing shoes probably never once correlated to their identifying the objects in the pictures as shoes ... I hate to say it, but a lot of research is done with an agenda, so it is critical that we look carefully at the results and understand the limitations of the study.

I applaud your desire to see the original study ... at some point it will publish. You might contact the author and ask directly when it is due out.

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Old April 12, 2012, 07:16 PM   #53
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Today, 03:05 PM #48
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You're all on your own. If you need help because you are being assaulted, if someone is breaking into your home, etc, etc. Don't expect me to help, to much liability involved. Who knows my intervention might create the next causes celebres, if I it does, it will only be from defending my own life, my family, or my property.

Call me any names you like, I care not the least. I've seen with my own eyes how the 'justice' system and media work. Or do not work, whichever your view may be.
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Unfortunately, we truly have little justice left in America in many ways because people on juries don't follow logical conclusions as they did in the past. How many times have you heard comments like, as soon as I saw him, I knew he was guilty that are completely subjective and illogical evidence of guilt. But that is America today. A jury of my peers would be composed of people that can act like Spock looking logically and objectively at the evidence. Anything other than that and a jury of my peers today is nothing but a frightful consideration.

You truly have to look after yourself and be very careful what you take on. Placing yourself in a situation where you have to depend on the American justice system ain't any place I ever want to be.

I do remember a news story a while back of an elderly man who was sitting in a shop when it got robbed. He had a military background of some sort if I recall the story correctly. Even though he was armed, he did not interfere with the robbers UNTIL they took him back into the bathroom. He believed at that point his life was in danger and he put a bullet in the two robbers heads killing them instantly.

No charges were filed. He showed restraint and only acted when he was taken into the back room, often an ominous sign. Tactically, he caught them by surprise because he didn't give away the fact he was carrying. In addition, there were no other people in the line of his bullets except the bad guys. If I can find that news report again, it is a true master piece of concealed carry intervention in my opinion.
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Old April 12, 2012, 07:21 PM   #54
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Oh ... I also wanted to mention that of the 10-15 people that I know who carry, I don't know a single person that acts brave or aggressive when they CCW ... on the contrary. In fact it has been my experience that when a firearm gets holstered, the typical response is enhanced civility and care to be law abiding in almost every dimension. I say "almost every dimension," because somehow none of us seem to drive any slower when we carry

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Old April 13, 2012, 04:49 AM   #55
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what can we learn?

So what is the proper tactical protocol for a private citizen to follow should they observe a crime in progress?

In August of this year, I will have been a police firearms instructor for 30 years. We train police officers, who are actually sworn and have the legal right to be armed off duty and make arrests, to do the following when observing some crime or potential crime off duty: OBSERVE AND REPORT. Don't follow anybody. Don't confront anybody UNLESS you are acting directly to protect somebody's personal safety. Get on your cell phone and call the ON DUTY UNIFORMED cops to come and investigate whatever situation you are observing. BE A GOOD WITNESS.

That's what ANYONE should do in a similar situation. Believe me, the on-duty police don't WANT the assistance of some clown who gets in the way and complicates the situation. OBSERVE and REPORT and let the cops do their job.

As a private citizen it is NOT your job to "take care of it myself" or "handle it my own way". The same thing is true for an off duty cop in most situations, or an on-duty cop in plainclothes. You don't carry a gun to be James Bond or Dirty Harry. You carry a gun to protect you and yours while you get on the cell phone and call for help from the police, or the fire department, or the ambulance service, or whatever . .
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Old April 13, 2012, 07:29 AM   #56
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How many times have you heard comments like, as soon as I saw him, I knew he was guilty that are completely subjective and illogical evidence of guilt.
On TV/movies, often. On jury duty, or from people who actually served on a jury, never.

I'll give you that we have a lot of problems with our judicial system, but jury's are still comprised of every day people - people who didn't duck their civic duty - and most people are trying to do the right thing.

I think most of the lessons learned from the situation in FL have more to do with citizenship than duties of a CCWer. Unless you're LEO - and regardless of whether you're carrying a gun - it's not your place to tail kids around, no matter how suspicious they look.
That doesn't mean we should completely ignore the world around us and take the tack that "if it's not directly effecting me, I won't do anything". I just think there's a lot of room between sitting by and watching someone get mugged, and chasing down every kid that we think looks like their up to no good.
But again, the only thing that carrying a gun effects in all that is that it does have the potential to escalate things. And if we do escalate - intentionally or not - a non violent situation into a violent/lethal one there will probably be consequences no matter what our intentions were. I think I heard that good intentions pave a road somewhere....
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Old April 13, 2012, 07:46 AM   #57
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Never look for trouble as you will most likely find it.
So no neighborhood watches?
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Old April 13, 2012, 07:52 AM   #58
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To play Devil's Advocate, what exactly keeps you safe if you're on a neighborhood watch? If neighborhood watch sees potential BG and calls it in, unless they immediately run/drive away they are potentially liable if attacked.

Last edited by zincwarrior; April 13, 2012 at 09:49 AM.
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Old April 13, 2012, 08:48 AM   #59
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Don't draw any conclusions about high profile cases like this until all the facts are out in the open.
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Old April 13, 2012, 09:43 AM   #60
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To play Devil's Advocate, what exactly keeps you safe if you're on a neighborhood watch?
Your exercising good judgement. Every situation is different, so there's no "cookbook" formula.
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Old April 13, 2012, 10:34 AM   #61
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To play the devil's advocate, do you allow the police in your neighborhood?
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Old April 13, 2012, 10:43 AM   #62
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Not understanding your question there.
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Old April 13, 2012, 11:14 AM   #63
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dayman
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How many times have you heard comments like, as soon as I saw him, I knew he was guilty that are completely subjective and illogical evidence of guilt.
On TV/movies, often. On jury duty, or from people who actually served on a jury, never.

I'll give you that we have a lot of problems with our judicial system, but jury's are still comprised of every day people - people who didn't duck their civic duty - and most people are trying to do the right thing.

I think most of the lessons learned from the situation in FL have more to do with citizenship than duties of a CCWer. Unless you're LEO - and regardless of whether you're carrying a gun - it's not your place to tail kids around, no matter how suspicious they look.
That doesn't mean we should completely ignore the world around us and take the tack that "if it's not directly effecting me, I won't do anything". I just think there's a lot of room between sitting by and watching someone get mugged, and chasing down every kid that we think looks like their up to no good.
But again, the only thing that carrying a gun effects in all that is that it does have the potential to escalate things. And if we do escalate - intentionally or not - a non violent situation into a violent/lethal one there will probably be consequences no matter what our intentions were. I think I heard that good intentions pave a road somewhere....
Actually, I don't believe many people understand basics aspects of logic and are ruled in many ways by emotion and fads than by logic and thought. I was recently an expert consultant in a murder trial where the defense in my opinion went beyond resonable doubt to much evidence of innocence far beyond just doubt of the prosecutions case. When the jury found the defendant guilty, one of the alternate jurors who heard the entire case came and wept in the defense lawyers office on how wrong the jury verdict was and that he could have made a difference in the case if he had been on the jury itself.

Two of the counts were dismissed in a manner that defies logic since they were two of the counts that had the strongest evidence. Trying to reverse engineer their logic is impossible.

No, I take exception to the statement that we have true justice any longer since we now have people who can barely count or read let alone put together a logical treatise of guilt of innocence. How many people deliberating have any basic understanding of the constitution or the Bill of Rights or our basic history of jurisprudence? No my friend, God forbid I ever have to stand before a jury of my "peers." That is one of the places where justice has broken down in not being able to recognize prosecutorial misconduct and lack of police integrity in so many cases.

Sorry, but I think I would rather take my chances before a panel of judges than the current average American jury where they routinely exclude anyone that has higher education and forethought on the basic issues of the case. Just as we have dumbed down schools, we likewise have dumbed down juries. Sad, but quite true.
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Old April 13, 2012, 11:50 AM   #64
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Sheesh! No wonder people are forever arguing about the second amendment. It's too short and too the point.

When I said do you allow the police in your neighborhood, what I really meant was: Do you allow the police in your neighborhood.

Do you live in a gated community? Or do you live or think you live in a neighborhood where the police do not come or are not welcomed? In other words, from your point of view, whose side do you think the police are on. Yours or someone elses?
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Old April 13, 2012, 12:04 PM   #65
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Sometimes it is overlooked, but 99.9% of the time, while you are armed, you will or should do exactly the same thing you would do if not carrying a firearm.

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Old April 13, 2012, 12:24 PM   #66
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Here's a thought:

TTAG frequently recommends that if you are in a DGU situation that you should keep your mouth shut when talking to the authorities afterwards. Identify yourself, tell them that you felt your life was in danger, and that's about it.

I can't really imagine what I would do in a DGU situation in terms of speaking to the police. It seems tempting to plead your own case in the hopes that they will choose not to charge you, but it's probably smarter to say nothing and let the legal process take its course. If the circumstances clearly indicate a defensive situation, I doubt you have anything to worry about.

No matter what, I believe you should avoid confrontation if that option is available to you.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; April 13, 2012 at 12:34 PM. Reason: off topic
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Old April 13, 2012, 12:57 PM   #67
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Quote:
Posted by BlueTrain: When I said do you allow the police in your neighborhood, what I really meant was: Do you allow the police in your neighborhood.
Are you honestly under the impression that people have a lawful option to not "allow police in a neighborhood"?

Quote:
Sheesh!
Yep.
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Old April 13, 2012, 01:11 PM   #68
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Not necessarily lawfully, although I don't know about gated communities. But there is an awful anti-police feeling here.
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Old April 13, 2012, 01:14 PM   #69
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1. In many jurisidctions the streets, even in gated communities, are considered public.

2. I'm not seeing the benefit or capability of keeping the police out. Even if possible (images of Waco come to mind) what happens when there is a crime in the gated community? What if someone calls the police?

I'm not getting where this train of thought is at.
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Old April 13, 2012, 01:17 PM   #70
Frank Ettin
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Enough!
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