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Old April 11, 2012, 09:39 PM   #26
Aikibiker
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Have some solid hand to hand skills. It is always good to have a plan for a fist fight that does not involve firearms.
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Old April 11, 2012, 09:40 PM   #27
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Never look for trouble as you will most likely find it.
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Old April 11, 2012, 10:21 PM   #28
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There is a very narrow set of circumstances where you can use lethal force to STOP an attack. That set of circumstances is probably much smaller than most of us believe who carry. If you provoke a fight and then later have to use lethal force to save your life, you are very likely looking at a murder charge the way many DA's look at these issues.

With the nature of lawsuits in America, the cities and counties do look for someone to blame to remove lighting and street and police coverage from potential liability issues. Just the way it is today. The prosecution working for the city, county or state or Feds may not be completely "neutral" parties when considered from the deep pockets lawsuit mentality.

Even a neighborhood watch organization as part of a home owners association finds liability protection from finding someone criminally negligent, i.e. the shooter. That makes many conflicts of interest in cases involving all of these elements.
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Old April 11, 2012, 10:32 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aikibiker
Have some solid hand to hand skills. It is always good to have a plan for a fist fight that does not involve firearms.
^This.

Unfortunately, I believe that this incident will cause some people to not report suspicious behavior when it is really warranted. Let's resist the temptation to look the other way when it's not the right thing to do.

This may also cause those who normally carry to not participate in neighborhood watches. That is a loss for their neighborhoods.

I'm also glad I'm a member of Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network.
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Old April 11, 2012, 10:43 PM   #30
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I don't believe that an individual's actions will put a damper on neighborhood watch groups. What drives that is home robberies.

I also belong to the Armed Citizens network and understand it is a very narrow set of conditions for self defense with lethal force. What happened or will happen in Florida only reinforces what most of us already know. Don't look for trouble, don't provoke an incident since you can be held accountable, and let the police do their job, if they will.

We had a home invasion robbery here in neighborhood a couple of months ago. When the home owner came home a few hours later, he called the cops but they never came.

We routinely have people passing through that members of the neighborhood watch actively observe and sometimes follow and circle. Sometimes they take pictures of the people that appear suspicious. The last thing a punk kid smash and grab sort of kid wants is someone to take their picture. I suspect it has helped keep the number of smash and grab robberies down from what it could have been. We have had three in the last 6 months compared to none for about 4 years.
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Old April 11, 2012, 10:57 PM   #31
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What can we learn - armed confrontation when no one is at risk is a bad idea.
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Old April 12, 2012, 12:17 AM   #32
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Stay in your car unless forced out of it/trapped in a corner.

Your odds of surviving a confrontation and/or trial are much better if you stay in your car.

Besides, your 3000lb car is a better self defense tool than your gun, both tactically and legally.
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Old April 12, 2012, 01:31 AM   #33
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I chuckle when I read this thread as some of the folks posting about the virtures of not following, nor confronting are the folks that maintain it is the right thing to do to step in if they see someone being threatened. Very odd how perceptions work.
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Old April 12, 2012, 01:47 AM   #34
Alaska444
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Stepping in is something that must be well thought out and well executed tactically if you are going to do it. An example from one of my CCW classes is helpful.

The instructor asked what you would do if you came out of a convenience store bathroom and saw the clerk being held up in a robbery. He asked what would we do. Various answers came forth, but his was the most unexpected. He stated he would go back in the bathroom and lock the door.

This is a 20 year veteran of the Army as an MP, a certified firearms instructor noted as an international expert, a certified VIP bodyguard and an incredibly accurate shooter. The reason why was more important. If you shoot someone pointing a gun at someone else, unless you score a midbrain CNS hit with your bullet, the physiologic response to the gunshot involuntarily most of the time will be a trigger squeeze killing the clerk you are trying to protect. In such a case, you will likely be the object of a lawsuit, but probably no criminal charges.

If the criminal is already shooting, that is a different situation, but the majority of armed robberies result in no injuries. Impossible to tell which robbery will end deadly or not.

He adised to take a tactical position incase he saw you as a target as well. Intervening in the first situation may be much more problematic than most people believe. The physiologic startle reactions could end in a bad outcome for the clerk and you as well. When to intervene or not is not a settled issue in almost all situations.

I believe our first duty is to be a good witness and diffuse the situation if possible. That may mean simply taking a defensive position and seek a tactical advantage of surprise if you have to. Taking matters into our own hands is another issue altogether that we should only venture under the gravest extremes.
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Old April 12, 2012, 06:25 AM   #35
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I may be a little different than some folks, but I have found myself to be less aggressive since I started carrying a firearm on a regular basis. For instance the other day as I was driving someone started tailgating me and when I slowed to turn they gave me the “you're number one” sign. In the past I might have returned the gesture, but this time as soon as the incident occurred the first thing I thought was – you have a gun. I did not think this because I felt empowered to be aggressive, but just the opposite that I need to do my best to avoid situations that might result in me being forced to use the gun.
Good point. I have as well. As I believe any physical confrontation will escalate, its on the realization that there no longer is a middle ground for me. Its either nothing or all out. Note, I have found this does not apply to anyone messing with the family.

Having said that I seem to now attract very large unleashed dogs like fleas when I walk the little wiener dogs, but pepper spray in the adoption of my dad's old tank of a dog has helped that immensely.
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Old April 12, 2012, 08:17 AM   #36
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The point I keep remembering from my CCW training is this: regardless of the aggressive action, once the aggressor walks away, you are no longer in a SD situtation. Now, if the agressor reenters the action, that puts you back into SD. Basically, even though someone has threatened you with harm(or actually harmed you), if he changes his mind/attitude and walks away, you can't shoot him in the back.
As has been said, none of us were at the scene of the conflict. Lets say that Zimmerman did follow, confront, or harass Martin. When Z walked away, that portion of the situation was over. IF Martin chased or followed Z and struck him from behind, the entire victim/aggressor situation was reversed.
The ONLY question is how that specific sequence of actions took place. Whether or not Zimmerman used poor judgement in pushing the initial contact or was foolish for making statements is secondary but is being used by the minority mouthpieces to cloud the issue.
I would love to launch into a tirade about how to alleviate the problem of "hoodies in the hood" but that would not be prudent.
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Old April 12, 2012, 09:45 AM   #37
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A fascinating case ... I was under the impression, perhaps unfounded, that sanctioned Neighborhood Watch members are usually not allowed to be armed; their job is to spot trouble and call the Mounties ... I'm not sure what I've learned, since armed or not, I would never have followed Mr. Martin after alerting police and being told to back off by the 911 operator ... bad decisions usually have bad results, and since Mr. Zimmerman is now facing a murder charge, I think his actions qualify ...
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Old April 12, 2012, 12:45 PM   #38
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For me, this event is a reminder that with rights come responsibilities. As gun owners, we often focus on our rights, which makes sense given that a not insignificant portion of the American electorate and our politicians would like to take certain of those rights away. However, as members of society we also have responsibilities and those responsibilities come into sharper focus when you decide to carry a gun.

People have already said it well in this thread: make an extra effort to avoid confrontation -- be pleasant, conciliatory and reasonable; if a confrontation is unavoidable, try to de-escalate and/or remove yourself from the situation if you can do so safely; as a last resort, when your life or the life of loved ones is in danger, respond accordingly. IMHO, neighborhood watch members should absolutely not be armed. Carrying a firearm does not turn you into law enforcement, and being armed while on a neighborhood watch, where your job is to observe and report, only invites tragedy.
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Old April 12, 2012, 12:53 PM   #39
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Neighborhood watches are just that, but that does not preclude someone with a CCW to not be able to carry as they do everyday. Our home owners association up in Idaho is organizing a neighborhood watch because of recent robberies in the last month that we have never had in this area. Sorry, but I ain't leaving my gun at home ever. I will also not be on "patrol" like a certain person of interest lately. But when out walking and doing my usual chores, yes, I will be armed as is my right whether their is a neighborhood watch or not.

If the home owners association places that preclusion in the neighborhood watch agreements, then I won't participate as a member of the neighborhood watch.
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Old April 12, 2012, 01:16 PM   #40
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he mentioned that some people think a gun empowers them to do things they would not normally do. All of us that carry ought to think carefully about that concept. Too many times a gun makes us feel "tougher" and we act more aggressively.
Im sorry I whole heartedly disagree with you on this and the concept it puts forth... When I am in CCW mode I am extraordinarly polite and I am a polite person to begin with. I am not seeking trouble or trying to bully anyone nor create any sort of situation. If and when the horrible day ever comes that I have to use deadly force under the law it will be exactly in the conditions the law expresses with no other intent but to save my own life or that of someone I may lawfully protect.

I would rather give up my seat, or walk away from a confrontation and when under arms. I let things go that might otherwise at least deserve a comment. Some young punk runs into you not paying attention, would normally get a comment of how about watching where your going or something similar... In CCW mode its simply excuse me and move away from the situation...

So no, CCW is a conflict reducer not a builder..I personally dont know of any carriers that act in the way you suggest and if I did know someone like that I would suggest that they stop carrying until they get themselves some help or just give it up all together.. I appreciate that its possible some people do as you suggest but in my experience that isnt how it is..

I will have to check with the local mall ninjas and see if they have been eyebrow beating people or what???
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Old April 12, 2012, 01:38 PM   #41
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Quote:
I may be a little different than some folks, but I have found myself to be less aggressive since I started carrying a firearm on a regular basis. For instance the other day as I was driving someone started tailgating me and when I slowed to turn they gave me the “you're number one” sign. In the past I might have returned the gesture, but this time as soon as the incident occurred the first thing I thought was – you have a gun. I did not think this because I felt empowered to be aggressive, but just the opposite that I need to do my best to avoid situations that might result in me being forced to use the gun.
This is also my way of thinking. While we have a right to defend ourselves, we also have a responsibility to act as muture adults. When carrying a weapon with such lethality, use your head!
Once the bullet leaves the barrel, you can't get it back. A gun is for life threatening situations only!
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Old April 12, 2012, 02:10 PM   #42
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Don't bothering getting involved, mind your own business, and if you see something...why bother calling 911, it can be used against you in the future.

Be prepared to protect yourself & your family. Let everyone else to the same, and hard luck to them if they fail.

That is what I have learned.
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Old April 12, 2012, 02:24 PM   #43
kobes31
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Thought to might add to discussion with this article/study:
http://news.yahoo.com/people-carryin...210313387.html
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Old April 12, 2012, 02:42 PM   #44
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Just because you have a CHL does NOT make you a LEO.
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Old April 12, 2012, 03:24 PM   #45
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Mindset is important

Apologize if this study is being discussed elsewhere on the forum.
(this is actually a report about it if anyone has/knows if the actual study is published online please share)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0321152627.htm

but it addresses an interesting point the OP bought up on the issue of how carrying makes one "feel"

I read elsewhere that the study was done on subjects who were not "regular" gun users -Curious what that means and curious what those of you who do carry think
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Old April 12, 2012, 03:29 PM   #46
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My wife told me about an odd incident at our home one morning.
She just left the house to jog around the neighborhood. As she was rounding the street she saw a truck slow down next to our house. She kept jogging until she felt that something was not right so she turned around. she found a "red work truck" parked in our driveway. Then she saw a man (no discription) walking out of our back gate. she confronted the man and asked him, "Can I help you?" The guys story was that he was there to meet with "Thomas". It just so happens to be one of our neighbor's name. Well the guy left and my wife thought nothing more of it until she ran into "Thomas". Thomas did not know who the guy was but said he will keep an eye out for the 'red work truck".
When my wife told me the story that evening, I asked if she took down the license plate or had her phone with her ready to call. She did not think it was necessary because it was daytime. Rather than get upset with her, I simply stated that I'm glad she is safe. Then I asked her if it happens again, to not confront but observe and report.
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Old April 12, 2012, 03:39 PM   #47
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Quote:
Have some solid hand to hand skills. It is always good to have a plan for a fist fight that does not involve firearms.
Not always the case for everyone, like older people who can't or fatter people, or people like myself who are small and most people could beat up easily.

Quote:
Just because you have a CHL does NOT make you a LEO.
^ This, a CCW is to defend yourself, not looking for trouble or starting trouble. Call the police and get out of there.
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Old April 12, 2012, 05:05 PM   #48
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You're all on your own. If you need help because you are being assaulted, if someone is breaking into your home, etc, etc. Don't expect me to help, to much liability involved. Who knows my intervention might create the next causes celebres, if I it does, it will only be from defending my own life, my family, or my property.

Call me any names you like, I care not the least. I've seen with my own eyes how the 'justice' system and media work. Or do not work, whichever your view may be.
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Old April 12, 2012, 05:58 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marquezj16
My wife told me about an odd incident at our home one morning.
She just left the house to jog around the neighborhood. As she was rounding the street she saw a truck slow down next to our house. She kept jogging until she felt that something was not right so she turned around. she found a "red work truck" parked in our driveway. Then she saw a man (no discription) walking out of our back gate. she confronted the man and asked him, "Can I help you?" The guys story was that he was there to meet with "Thomas". It just so happens to be one of our neighbor's name. Well the guy left and my wife thought nothing more of it until she ran into "Thomas". Thomas did not know who the guy was but said he will keep an eye out for the 'red work truck".
When my wife told me the story that evening, I asked if she took down the license plate or had her phone with her ready to call. She did not think it was necessary because it was daytime. Rather than get upset with her, I simply stated that I'm glad she is safe. Then I asked her if it happens again, to not confront but observe and report.
A similar incident happened to me two years ago when I was working on a property that I rent. My guard was down because I had been working on the plumbing in the basement crawl space for a few hours and I was tired. The tenants were not home when a loud knocking came to the front door. Then the loud knocking came again. I went to the door in an agitated state of mind covered in crawl space dirt and looking like the Loch Ness monster holding some plumbing tools.

I didn't know what to expect but I didn't get a good feeling from the knocking. I was carrying a small frame .38 in a belt holster but it didn't occur to me to get it ready because I was too tired, dirty and agitated. When I opened the door, there stood a big dude on the top step of the porch looking nervous. We just looked at each other for about two seconds then he said that he was looking for somebody by a name that I didn't know. Next I noticed his partner on the driver side of a car that was backed into the driveway. My internal alarm went off because a similar thing happened to me at my house some years earlier.
The guy quickly said that he thought he had the wrong house and immediately got into the passenger side of the car and the car drove away. Later when the tenants returned home, they stated that they didn't know anyone by the description I gave and they didn't know the car.

Several things come to mind when I review this incident.
  1. I think it was my bizarre appearance that gave this guy pause from attacking me.
  2. My gun did not come into play because like an idiot, I didn't have it ready.
  3. I normally consider myself alert and aware but when I'm tired, my guard goes down somewhat whether I admit it or not.
  4. Many home invasions begin with a knock at the door.
  5. I could have been shot as soon as I opened the door.
  6. Before opening the door, it pays to look out a window to see what is in the driveway and how many people are there.
  7. It doesn't hurt to look and sound like a mean S.O.B. when strangers come knocking at your door. If they turn out to be good people, you can always offer an apology later. This might be what saved my life.
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Old April 12, 2012, 06:22 PM   #50
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Discretion is the better part of valor. Lethal force must be the last resort in the face of unavoidable threat, because even if it is decided to be justified by law, there are dire consequences for everyone involved.

Shoot if you must, avoid if you can...and do this on the basis of a split-second decision, in the dark, under stress.
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