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Old April 7, 2012, 09:15 AM   #1
mehavey
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Revised--DIRTY WAX BUILDUP--Small-Base sizing of Lake City 308 brass

I usually small-base size my Winchester brass being run through my M1A w/o any problem at all.
Last night on a whim I tried the same w/ some one-fired (out of my M1A) M118 LC`81Match brass
and Whoa ! big trouble in river city.

First, it took all my weight to get it fully into the die, and then all my strength to extract it from the die.
(BTW: Imperial Sizing Wax) Then like an idiot I said "Self, now that it's sized, try that same case again."
This time I pulled the rim off the case trying to get it out and spent 15 minutes pulling the die
apart/pounding the case out. *

Anyone else experience greater SB Sizer issues w/ mil brass?



* (Cost me a deformed expander button, but I replaced it w/ a spare from an extra 300Win die set. )

Last edited by mehavey; April 8, 2012 at 08:35 AM.
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Old April 7, 2012, 09:38 AM   #2
243winxb
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Wax Build UP

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293530
Quote:
Why no more Imperial Sizing Wax for me--straight from RCBS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Called RCBS again yesterday, and sent them an e-mail regarding the stuck .223. Explained that out of the thousands of rifle rounds I've loaded, the ONLY stuck cases I've had have been as of very recent--when I decided to give Imperial a try.

Here is the response from RCBS--


Quote:
Hi Jeff:
Return the die to us and we will remove the stuck case and replace any
damaged components. You want to avoid lube that is wax based or has any
wax products in the ingredients. 95% of the stuck cases we get back
here are due to wax based lube.

What happens is that the wax builds up inside the die and is like rubber
cement in there and the cases will get stuck every time. Your die is
under warranty and there is no problem sending it back to us. Have a
great day!

I know and fully expect to hear the "it's never happened to ME" responses, and trust me, I'm GLAD it's never happened to you! Really! Anyone and everyone that has had a TRULY stuck case--as in, TNT, C4 and volcanic heat won't get that sucker out--knows the maddening frustration.

But in all the years I've been reloading, the Lee lube has never even given the hint of having a case wanting to stick.

I broke one of my cardinal rules--if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Jeff
Try some RCBS lube as a test, see if it makes a difference??
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Old April 7, 2012, 10:01 AM   #3
wncchester
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duplicate deleted

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Old April 7, 2012, 10:06 AM   #4
wncchester
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For some 25 years I've frequently reformed bulk .35 Whelen and military surplus .30-06 cases into .22-250, 6mm International, .243, 7.65 Arg. and .308; what you were doing with your SB die with a tiny case is mild in comparision; I strongly disagree with the RCBS representitive about wax becoming a rubber glue.

I once did a lot of experimentation with various case lubes, commercial and substitutes, for my reforming and found the commercial types all work quite well but I slowly came to prefer Imperial die wax and similar substitutes for being clean and easy to apply with finger tips. I stuck a lot of cases doing those experiments but have NEVER had a stuck case with any proper case lube UNLESS I failed to properly coat the lower, thicker part of the cases near the head; I don't blame the lube for my failure in that.

Removing a stuck case is nether complex nor difficult IF we have the proper tools. A stuck case remover kit is rather inexpensive and, IMHO, every reloader should have one.

Last edited by wncchester; April 7, 2012 at 10:12 AM.
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Old April 7, 2012, 10:23 AM   #5
mehavey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WncChester
... have NEVER had a stuck case with any proper case lube UNLESS I failed to properly coat the lower, thicker part of the cases near the head.
And so I did -- twice given the fact that I sent the same case through again after the first sizing.
But still the same (if not worse) result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WNCC again
A stuck case remover kit is rather inexpensive and, IMHO, every reloader should have one.
Ahem... so noted. Expander balls are relatively cheap but still a pain to get to the point I have to replace one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 243Win
Try some RCBS lube as a test...
Since I used that stuff since the earth cooled (and on the 8th day I switched to Imperial sizing wax), I'll try it.
...right after my stuck case remover arrives from Midway.
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Old April 7, 2012, 10:52 AM   #6
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I am so surprised. Imperial sizing wax is one of the better sizing lubricants. I seldom use it as it takes long to apply. I apply Imperial sizing wax with my fingers. Mink oil shoe polish feels like the same stuff and works equally well.

I use RCBS water soluble in my small base dies of .223, 308 and 30-06. I put a number of drops on a patch and let roll with the cases in a Thumler's Thumbler barrel.

If I do not get enough lube on the cases I have come close to sticking a case. I then re tumble them with a bit more lube.

My normal problem is too much lube. I often wipe the case neck/shoulders with a paper towel to prevent shoulder dents.

I suspect you did not have enough lubricant, especially as these cases had been shot in your M1a. Unless M1a chambers have gotten large, which is possible, I don't know why you had such resistance to going in the die.

My bolt rifle gunsmith told me Krieger was using a reamer that was extra large in the case head, to reduce slamfires in their M1a barrels. Maybe you got one of those?
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Old April 7, 2012, 03:53 PM   #7
30Cal
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If the brass came out of a machinegun, then you're going to need a healthy slathering of lube. Even Imperial.
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Old April 7, 2012, 04:45 PM   #8
mehavey
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This was new Lake City match ammo, once-fired (in my M1A). Winchester brass small-base resizes from that rifle with no undue pressure, while the LC above was a whole new experience. (...and I guarantee I had enough lube/wax on it -- especially 2nd-time through.)

I'll wait for the case extractor and try again with some RCBS lube that I've got a lifetime supply of ...although Imperial Wax has shown itself superior over the last several years.
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Old April 7, 2012, 06:49 PM   #9
89blazin
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resizing LC 7.62x51

I am addressing the difference in force required to resize you experienced, and am assuming you properly lubed the cases.

Commercial brass is much softer than military brass, especially LC. That is why it is so much easier to full length resize. That is also why a brass monster like the M1A should be fed NATO brass vice commercial. LC and WCC are the only types I use. I've even resized this brass after being originally fired in an M60, and still didn't experience a real struggle during the resizing step. Of course my old Herters press has a nice long arm.

I used to use a SB resizer, but put it away a few years ago. My regular Lee resizing die does a very satisfactory job. I've resized thousands of LC 7.62 for my M1As, using several different lubes. My preference is Imperial Wax, plus I like the ease of cleaning it off the case after resizing. I always run the brass through twice while it's in the die, the thicker cased LC has a strong memory, so the added pass helps set the shoulder where it needs to be. This is true when using a SB die as well. I then wipe off the lube and drop the resized brass into a Wilson case gage to verify the shoulder has been properly set.

Not to make bad of your rifle, but it sounds to me like your particular M1A chamber is the issue. Is this a relatively new rifle...recently bought used...or had several thousand rounds run through it? Another thought, have you cleaned the die and made sure the relief hole in it is not getting clogged up? This would make it more difficult to resize.

This URL is worth a read:
http://www.m14.ca/reloading/14_loading.pdf

Last edited by 89blazin; April 7, 2012 at 07:08 PM.
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Old April 8, 2012, 12:00 AM   #10
mehavey
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I've been reloading this M1A for years, so no surprises and the chamber/case before/after specs are minimal.
Tight (but not too tight) rifle.

No surprise until tonight when I went down and (A) pulled the expander plug out so I could
whack the case out if necessary; (B) cleaned out the die using tightly screwed-in paper
towel(s); (C) rummaged around to haul out my 5-year old squeeze bottle of RCBS Case Lube-2 ;
(D) did my usual fingers-lube job on a couple of LC`81 cases from the same box as last time;
and (E) held my breath as the first one started into the SB die.

Smooth as butter.

Darn. I was really liking Imperial Sizing Wax.





`Of course it could have been just the yucky wax 'build-up' that 243Win warned about -- like in the old linoleum floor-cleaning ads.
(Old Dog don'cha know....)

Last edited by mehavey; April 8, 2012 at 12:06 AM.
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Old April 8, 2012, 12:23 AM   #11
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After I clean a die, I make sure to put a lot of Imerial on the first case into the die. If not, the resistance increase is quite noticeable. After a few sizings, and the Imperial has put a nice new coating on the inside of the die, far less is needed on the following cases.

In other words, you didn't use enough lube.
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Old April 8, 2012, 01:42 AM   #12
deepcore
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That's what she said

For my LR 308 I neck size and body size separately.
I use Imperial for the neck and RCBS for the body.
At some point (since I don't clean the brass in between) the two mix together some...very slick.
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Old April 8, 2012, 07:57 AM   #13
mehavey
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Quote:
In other words, you didn't use enough lube.
Actually that is incorrect and therein lies my lesson.

I was using plenty of wax.
The problem was as 243Win suggested... previous dirty wax buildup inside the die made all that new wax useless.

Lesson absorbed.
Learn something new every day.


.

Last edited by mehavey; April 8, 2012 at 08:33 AM.
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Old April 8, 2012, 08:48 AM   #14
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I don't believe that but whatever puts your mind at ease
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Old April 8, 2012, 09:32 AM   #15
mehavey
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I'm a experimental physicist by trade, wherein there is an old wry expression:

Code:
   "When the data disagrees w/ the theory, 
    ...so much the worse for the data"
(Double )
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Old April 8, 2012, 09:43 AM   #16
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I use RCBS lube and have no problem what so ever, even using surplus brass that came out of a machine gun. And we know what a M-60 can do to brass.

Anyway, I have a rather large drum tumbler. When I have lots of brass to lube I took an old Winchester 8 lb powder can, put a piece of carpet in it and put the lube (RCBS) on the carpet. Then I tumble lube the cases.

It completely covers the brass, yet doesn't leave excess that caused dimples in the shoulder.

I load the ammo on a Dillon RL 1000 progressive loader. The loader doesn't have the leverage a single press has but still I have no problem using sizing with small base dies.
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Old April 8, 2012, 09:45 AM   #17
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It sounds like your LC brass has been work hardened and less forgiving.

Jim
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Old April 8, 2012, 09:57 AM   #18
89blazin
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Revised--DIRTY WAX BUILDUP--Small-Base sizing of Lake City 308 brass

I guess the moral of the story is to clean dies frequently enough that build up doesn't occur.
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Old April 8, 2012, 10:07 AM   #19
mehavey
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Roger that.
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Old April 8, 2012, 12:21 PM   #20
William T. Watts
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I've used RCBS lube for more than 45 years and never a stuck case. I could say more on this subject but won't! William
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Old April 9, 2012, 10:03 AM   #21
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You won’t, but I will, I believe some of these guys take themselves too seriously, I went over to help an old friend, he builds bench rest type rifles that shoot one hole groups, seems someone told him the one hole groups would improve if he tightened the necks, his 308 W necks before firing measured .335”, after firing they measured .345 thousandths, after I finished his necks measured .341” before firing, after firing the neck measured .345, he has an A2 RCBS press, he used Dillon in the spray can and in the bottle, after that he went to the Imperial sizer wax in the can, to me it seemed the press wanted those cases more than he did because that press acted like it did not want them shoved into the die and after getting forced into the die, the press did not want to give them back, and I offered to make another trip to get a lube that is not on the list of approved lubes by posters on reloading forms. Now, that was a work-out for my friend, the press ands my dies.
And I wonder, I hear that story about “being fired in a machine gun” and the case being locked in the chamber while the case is being ripped out of the chamber, and all that stretching going on etc., etc..

Then I read this:

“First, it took all my weight to get it fully into the die, and then all my strength to extract it from the die.
(BTW: Imperial Sizing Wax) Then like an idiot I said "Self, now that it's sized, try that same case again."
This time I pulled the rim off the case trying to get it out and spent 15 minutes pulling the die
apart/pounding the case out. *”

And then I ask, What does all that weight on the leaver do to the case, there is no support for the case when the press is leveraged out, looks like you need something from Larry Willis, while you are standing on the handle the case is increasing in diameter before it gets to the base of the die, I find that a common problem with mag shooters, their chamber is larger in diameter than the die, when they attempt returning the case to specifications the case increases in diameter, making it more difficult to force that case in a standard die, and I told Winchester I want a chamber to fit my dies or a die to fit your chamber, and they thought I was being difficult in the beginning, then they started acting like sweat hogs, “I am so confused”, then they accused me of being impossible.

Then “with all your strength, you lowered the ram” and I ask: “What effect does that have on the case” seems to me if I wanted to pull the rim off or pull the case apart like it was fired in a machine gun, that is exactly what I would do.

There are not many dies I do not have, my favorite die is the versatile full length sizer die, the versatile full length sizer die and the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage.

A reloader. shooter, collector sent me a set of RCBS dies with a 30/06 case stuck in the sizer die, I made a puller, removed the stuck case and then starting sizing once fired cases, my press, shell holder and lube, the first 5 cases I attempted to size stuck, after sizing 50 cases the die was cured, I thought about trading the dies but the the owner said the dies belong to his father, because of the stuck case he purchased another set, anyhow, after returning the dies to him he said he did not trust them and was going to keep them as back-ups. And I suggested he change his method/technique for cleaning dies.

I purchased 40 pounds of reloading dies, trim dies, chamber gages, L.E. Wilson case trimmers with case holders for $20.00 with a collet bullet puller 30 cal thrown in, after paying for the two boxes I started digging out everything stamped ‘Lee’, and of course, the dealer wanted to know what I was doing, I explained to him I was giving the Lee equipment back to him, and he said “You paid $20.00 for the two boxes of stuff, the Lee equipment was thrown in free”. I should have said I did not want to haul all that weight out the door and through the parking lot.

If someone wonders if their is a '?' mark left out, use one of these ? ? ? ? ?.

F. Guffey
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Old April 9, 2012, 10:54 AM   #22
Slamfire
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Quote:
I've been reloading this M1A for years, so no surprises and the chamber/case before/after specs are minimal.
Tight (but not too tight) rifle.

No surprise until tonight when I went down and (A) pulled the expander plug out so I could
whack the case out if necessary; (B) cleaned out the die using tightly screwed-in paper
towel(s); (C) rummaged around to haul out my 5-year old squeeze bottle of RCBS Case Lube-2 ;
(D) did my usual fingers-lube job on a couple of LC`81 cases from the same box as last time;
and (E) held my breath as the first one started into the SB die.

Smooth as butter.

Darn. I was really liking Imperial Sizing Wax.
Never knew this could happen. Most of my sizing has been with RCBS water soluble, glad I lucked out and never had this problem.

Is Imperial Sizing Wax a wax, or is that just a name?
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Old April 9, 2012, 05:09 PM   #23
mehavey
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RCBS Case Lube wins....

FWIW: I went back down and cleaned out the SB die from the RCBS Case Lube trial and set up to
go again with Imperial Sizing Wax.

No joy.

Only this time I wasn't so stupid as to continue past a yougottabekidding amount of force
before getting the case back out.

Cleaned the die.
Cleaned the case.
Lubed w/ RCBS again...

Smooth.

`Guess that converts me back to the same case lube I started w/ so long, long, long ago.
.........Shucks.
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Old April 9, 2012, 07:03 PM   #24
wncchester
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I actually have no idea if long term use of any wax lube can possibly induce a "rubber build up" but doubt it, that just doesn't seem possible.

Nevertheless, I've been reloading since '65 and no matter what case lube I'm using, I always spray some kind of protective oil in/on my dies when I finish a loading session and then clean them internally before starting again. Originally I used mineral spirits on a paper towel wrapped snuggly around a pencil for swabbing out the insides but since cheep spray carborator cleaner became easily available I use that for cleaning, followed by the same paper swab used to dry the cleaned dies.

It matters not what case lube I may use, I know the first case through a clean, dry die needs a tad of 'extra' lube, especially down near the head.
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Old April 9, 2012, 08:47 PM   #25
mehavey
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Whatever the cause, my latest favorite love -- Imperial Sizing Wax -- would not permit SB sizing of the LC`81 Match brass.

My old flame -- RCBS Case lube -- did permit it, and with remarkable ease.

Sometimes you can "go back."








postscript: ISW had the advantage of being relatively "clean" on the case for field use, while RCL definitely needs to be wiped off.

.
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