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Old March 29, 2012, 09:15 AM   #1
ltc444
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Encounter with police

A 911 caller was arrested after Pasadena, CA Police shot an unarmed man.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/29...obber/#comment

The story got me thinking on how to avoid being shot when you encounter police. Following are some thoughts:

1. Be calm. If the cops think you are armed they won't be calm.
2. Follow instructions.
3. All movements on your part should be slow and deliberate IAW the police instructions.
4. If the cops are confused/indecisive passively take control and lead them to the point were they conclude that you are not a threat.
5. Make all movements "SLOW AS LASSES IN WINTER".
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Old March 29, 2012, 09:39 AM   #2
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My thoughts exactly. Until I can prove to the police that I'm harmless, I'm not reaching for anything but sky.
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Old March 29, 2012, 09:44 AM   #3
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Some LEO's might find it offensive what I am about to say but I follow these rules when dealing with police officers. Talk slowly and softly, nothing that could be considered threatening. NO sudden movements, any movements (such as show me your drivers license) done very slowly; keep hands visible at all times and open palmed.

If it is dark and you have a cell phone, flash light, anything DARK or for that matter silver JUST DROP IT. better to break your phone than get NYPD'd

Last edited by Frank Ettin; March 29, 2012 at 10:27 AM.
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Old March 29, 2012, 11:18 AM   #4
Carne Frio
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Civility and politeness always, when dealing with the men in blue.
Cris Rock made a great comedy sketch that explains the concept.
WARNING for language.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2wOxnAiIVs
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Old March 29, 2012, 12:30 PM   #5
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I'm a former police officer and the biggest thing I can tell you is keep your hands out in the open where the officer can see them.
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Old March 29, 2012, 01:56 PM   #6
Vermonter
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This is simple

Follow instructions. If they tell you to do the hokie pokie do the hokie pokie. It is not up to anyone to lead the poliece to any conclusion. Answer any question asked with the truth and move on. When I encounter the police I will most likely be armed therefore I will inform them of that correctly.

Everyone goes home when everyone listens.

Kind Regards, Vermonter

Last edited by Vermonter; March 29, 2012 at 06:33 PM.
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Old March 29, 2012, 05:14 PM   #7
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As a LEO, a good majority of the people you deal on a daily basis with are scumbags
Good to know law enforcement feels that way...
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Old March 29, 2012, 05:25 PM   #8
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Maybe just be prepared to defend yourself is the fuzz tries to murder you.
I am NOT a dirt bag, dope dealer, or miscreant and I DO expect to be treated with the respect due any lawabiding US citizen.
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Old March 29, 2012, 05:50 PM   #9
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Generally in a given shift in law enforcement, talking about dispatched calls, searching for suspects, or witnessed crimes, an officer will deal with many of the same people, doing the same or similar crimes, or at least it is true in the small town where I work. These people range from not that good, to pretty bad (not to get in to controversial terms).

During a shift, an officer will also deal with the regular upstanding citizens when he/she is out and about, whether it is on meal break, stopping for coffee, during some traffic enforcement/investigation, and during some calls.

Being that the job description is 'law enforcement', it is proper that the officer generally be around those doing the crimes, and try to catch and enforce the laws, but also spend time, though smaller with those reporting the crimes. It is only my experience here, but it takes more time to find/catch the bad guys/gals, then it does to take the initial report.

Unless you, meaning the person the officer is interacting with, is readily known to the officer, he/she will be on guard, cautious, and watching not only you, but others around. Im going to try to word the next part delicatly. When you deal with people, even good folks who the officer has known for years are not 'always trusted' in that, the officer in uniform is not only a person, but a representitive of the government, and as such is a target in some ways. A percentage of good people can be pushed to the edge, and a smaller percentage of them may go over the edge in a bad way.

Many on this forum have spoke about how they need to be prepared and ready because criminals are out there. People tend to forget that the officer is prepared because he/she knows the same, or that the officer should have some magic sense to tell him/her that the person they are dealing with is good or bad.

If you are detained, temporarily or otherwise, be as respectful while the officer does whats required/needed, as you would if the officer was doing business with you in some other manner. Meaning, dont try to tell the officer how to do his job, because I doubt most people would enjoy being told how to do their job either. If you feel you are wronged, fight it in court, not on the street. Respect goes along ways.
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Old March 29, 2012, 07:54 PM   #10
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Courts don't help YOU if you're already dead.
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Old March 29, 2012, 08:18 PM   #11
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I'm not LE, but I spent several years in the Fire Department and from listening to the scanner, I was AMAZED at the percentage of license checks that came back suspended or revoked or attached to outstanding warrants ... it isn't that law enforcement FEELS that they deal with a lot of trouble makers, it is a FACT. It isn't personal and they don't think that everyone is a criminal, but a disproportionately high percentage of the people that they DEAL with are.

FWIW, when I get stopped, my hands are both on the wheel where they can be easily seen by the officer. It's "Yes officer," "No officer," "I'm not sure officer" and "The registration is behind the seat, officer, would you like me to get it for you?" How difficult is that?

I'm sure that not all LEOs are great guys, but my experience is that most of them are at least good guys. That being said, I know from talking to a few that they do an attitude check in the first 3 seconds they interact with you and it all flows from there ... cop a 'tude and it won't be any fun at all. Profiling and stereotypes get a bad rap in today's PC world, but they come from experience and people with attitudes tend to cause LEOs trouble ... I just can't blame them if they react when provoked by disrespect.

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Old March 29, 2012, 08:30 PM   #12
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...
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Old March 29, 2012, 08:43 PM   #13
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Quote:
This is simple
Follow instructions. If they tell you to do the hokie pokie do the hokie pokie. It is not up to anyone to lead the poliece to any conclusion. Answer any question asked with the truth and move on. When I encounter the police I will most likely be armed therefore I will inform them of that correctly.

Everyone goes home when everyone listens.
Unless your gun is in the holster on your belt and they tell you to "drop the gun" or "hand over the gun". (that's a trap) Do not put your hands anywhere near the gun even if they tell you to.
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Old March 30, 2012, 12:06 AM   #14
Glenn Dee
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In my experience as a police officer most of the people I dealt with were decent people who just needed some help with what ever problem brought us together. After what ever interaction... most people thanked me. Part of being a good cop is being able to tell the difference between a person in some sort of emotional distress, and someone up to no good.

IMO it is the tactical responsibility of the officer to act in his own safety, the safety of other officers, the safety of the public at large, and even toward the safety of the wrondoer. Again I relied on tactics as best I could. I've disarmed quite a few people. Most of the time they drop the gun when asked. when stepping to an individual, or group I SUSPECT of being armed I always challanged from a position of cover, or ambush.

My advice is to treat an officer the same way you want to be treated. If it's an armed confrontation... as the officer gives you instructions... repeat those instructions out loud as you follow them.
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Old March 30, 2012, 01:44 AM   #15
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Maybe just be prepared to defend yourself is the fuzz tries to murder you.
Really
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Old March 30, 2012, 05:48 AM   #16
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I grew up in a small town at a time when policemen wore white shirts and had a decidedly easy-going attitude. That was 50 years ago. The town is even smaller now (I moved away) but I was alarmed to discover the crime rate there is higher than it is where I live now in a suburb of Washington, DC. Do you suppose that was always the case or have things changed? Was the idea of a peaceful small town where nothing ever happened a myth?

I don't see how a policeman could have an easy-going attitude now, though all I have had personal interaction with have been nice and professional. But judging from just what I've read in this forum, if you will allow me to say so, policemen have to deal with people who think they are law-abiding, God-fearing, church-going, conservative patriots but who are in fact arrogant, racist, anti-authoritarian, reactionary and maybe just a little bit conceited. But then, practically everyone in Virginia and South Carolina is conceited. North Carolina has a little more humility. Anyway, and those are just the good guys.
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Old March 30, 2012, 06:21 AM   #17
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Oh snap! You just called out two states... Where's my popcorn
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Old March 30, 2012, 06:32 AM   #18
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But then, practically everyone in Virginia and South Carolina is
So your a glass half empty kinda guy.
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Old March 30, 2012, 07:50 AM   #19
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Okay, for those of you who are not from Back East, here's the original expression:

North Carolina is a vale of humility between two mountains of conceit.

I live in Virginia, the same state where my father was born. My wife and her father were born in the District of Columbia and have no idea what I'm talking about.

But to return to the topic at hand, do people think policemen may have changed since we were kids in the 1950s? Or did we change?
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Old March 30, 2012, 08:15 AM   #20
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I think part of it is that, just like TV news tends to focus on the scary, illicit, and dangerous (because that drives up ratings), that people tend to have sharper memories of events that went badly than of those that went well.

I think there are anthropological and psychological reasons for that, based on long term survival of the species (Danger! Beware!), but I will leave that argument to Glenn E Meyer to dissect.

My point being, though, that I suspect humans are geared to have stronger memories of negative interactions - hence, "it only takes a few bad apples."

I have a lot of LEO friends. Of those LEOs I only met in passing - and there have been many - most were good people. But, of the ones I met in passing, the two who made the sharpest impression were bullies, who had reputations among the high school and college crowd in my area as bullies.

As a percentage, these guys were a small minority. Their emotional impact, though, was disproportionate.
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Old March 30, 2012, 08:29 AM   #21
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Quote:
just be prepared to defend yourself is the fuzz tries to murder you.
Acting on this attitude (from your first post) is the quickest and most reliable way to get to the situation in your second post:

Quote:
Courts don't help YOU if you're already dead.
Generally if "the fuzz tries to murder you" there's a pretty good reason for it. There are rare instances of officer chasing down innocent individuals and killing them in cold blood, but it's more common by several orders of magnitude for officers to kill someone who either (1) is armed and aggressive or (2) somehow presents a perceived immediate threat.

Most of us on this thread are talking about how to avoid the second one, since that's how innocent people get killed.
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Old March 30, 2012, 09:52 AM   #22
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Of course the TV news focuses on the scary and tragic. It always has. Anything else is not news. But one thing that has changed is 24-hour news. Think of it: news all day long. But there isn't enough news to go around, in a manner of speaking. So you live in Florida and hear about school bus accidents in Oregon. It is information overkill.

However, just as we might remember bad things it is just as likely we remember the good things and overlook the bad. That's called looking at the past through rose colored glasses and I see evidence of that all the time here. Things were grand and glorious at some point in the past and it's been downhill ever since. The question is merely whether the year was 1910, 1928, 1957 or 1965.
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Old March 30, 2012, 09:56 AM   #23
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But to return to the topic at hand, do people think policemen may have changed since we were kids in the 1950s? Or did we change?
Bluetrain,

Police officers have changed alot since the 1950's. What people sometimes seem to forget is that the officers are roughly a cross section of the community (that can pass the background, etc). Back in the 50's officers I understand were more easy going, and relaxed. The officers had respect, and gave respect. The 60's brought up alot of riots and unrest that kind of turned one group (demonstrators/rioters) against the other group (officers), and it was done regularly during this time. Also, the 60's brought a questioning of authority that still stands to this day in ways. Locally back in the 70's is when we had alot of officers killed, these officers I mention, were all shot and killed on duty.

That changed a good bit of things. Many of the officers then were korean and vietnam vets, as well some local folks who due to age were between the drafts, or were uneligible to be drafted. When these officers were killed, the other officers became more safety concious and also more forceful.

I could go on and on, but I think both sides have changed, both for good and bad in some ways.

This is just my opinion, so feel free to enjoy your own. May the force be with you in your universe, and have a by golly wonderful day!!!
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Old March 30, 2012, 11:35 AM   #24
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@Carne Frio


Thank you! You made my day, I can't stop laughing!
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Old March 30, 2012, 01:22 PM   #25
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I suppose it is wishful thinking to imagine that things only changed recently. Things are always changing. I hope that remembering the police when we were small as friendly and helpful, and maybe even easygoing, is not a figment of our memories. It's really hard to say.

But you're correct about the events since then and how they affected attitudes, not just those of the police. It does not follow, however, that everyone's attitude towards the police changed. That's equally hard to call. Whether or not officers are more representative of the community or a cross section of the community is an arguable point. I have my doubts but it probably depends a lot of which community we speak of. In more expensive parts of the country, policemen often actually live outside of the community they work in. That has not gone unnoticed but it certainly makes you wonder about just how much of a cross section there really is. I don't imagine there have ever been many rich policemen, however, Burke's Law notwithstanding.
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