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Old April 1, 2012, 03:19 PM   #1
willr
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.40 cal hollow points for Homeland Security

The other day, I received a note saying that MILLIONS (don't have the number of millions at hand--but it is many) of .40 S&W hollow-point ammo have been ordered by Homeland Security. Significant questions arose in my mind because in distant memory I seem to remember that this kind of ammo is not permitted for law-enforcement. Please correct me if I am wrong.

It also seems to me that this kind of ammo is not permitted by the Geneva Convention in warfare. Correct me if I am wrong here.

Thanks for any responses.

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Old April 1, 2012, 03:40 PM   #2
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Ok, you are wrong.

The Hague conventions apply to ammunition used by military forces at war. They have nothing to do with LE.

Hollow point ammo has been standard for LE use in the US for a couple decades.
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Old April 1, 2012, 06:11 PM   #3
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And the number your looking for is 450 MILLION! They have been buying for the past 3 or 4 years now.
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Old April 1, 2012, 06:55 PM   #4
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450 Million What are they getting ready for....
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Old April 1, 2012, 07:09 PM   #5
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Yep wrong on all counts.

1) It's the Hague Convention that bans hollow points in warfare, not the Geneva Convention.
2) The US is not bound by the ban since we never signed it AFAIK. We just follow it voluntarily becaise we're supposed to be the "good guys", and good guys follow the rules.
3) The ban only applies in warfare, not law enforcement.
4) Hollow-point ammo has been stadard issue in the LE community for decades now.
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Old April 1, 2012, 07:16 PM   #6
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I am well aware that the Hague/Geneva conventions do not apply to law enforcement. The issue is that what may be legal in one situation isn't legal in another. Why in the world is it necessary that Homeland Security needs to order such a volume of ammo? As a previous writer said, what are they expecting?

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Old April 1, 2012, 07:28 PM   #7
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Homeland Security swallowed up a number of agencies when it was created. I'm on my way into the Border Patrol (the largest LE agency in the country, and now a part of Homeland Security) and they issue .40 H&Ks.

So between practice and duty use among the several agencies and many agents, I imagine DHS goes through quite a few bullets.
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Old April 1, 2012, 08:02 PM   #8
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Using my rather primitive reasoning skills a 1000 man force (of which there are many, and many larger), the 1000 man force in initial training (500 rounds per man) and 2 qualifications in a calendar year (200 rounds per man), the force will burn 900,000 rounds in one year, and 400,000 rounds every subsequent year, assuming no attrition and no new recruits to train which will increase the round count. Many departments and units qualify more frequently and use more rounds while doing so. As you can see, an alarming number of rounds can be consumed quickly with even basic training and qualifications. My own department orders ammo when the stash gets down to a quarter million rounds for qualifications.

The DHS procurement does not seem unreasonable at all. It is over a period of time as well, not a train load of ammo all at once.
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Old April 1, 2012, 09:00 PM   #9
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Quote:
450 Million What are they getting ready for....
Hopefully they are going to practice
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Old April 1, 2012, 09:11 PM   #10
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It seems like they would practice with fmjs and save hps for patrol.
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Old April 1, 2012, 10:18 PM   #11
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Quote:
It seems like they would practice with fmjs and save hps for patrol.
To be the as proficient a possible, it is best to practice with what you carry.

LEOs have a hard enough time hitting their targets (for many reasons that we don't need to go into here). Do you really want to introduce the additional variable of having them carry ammunition they haven't practiced with?...
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Old April 1, 2012, 10:59 PM   #12
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Wow, this topic sounds so familiar, I just don't know why...

Hmmm?
This sounds a lot like another recent topic...

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Old April 2, 2012, 06:31 AM   #13
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Quote:
Quote:
It seems like they would practice with fmjs and save hps for patrol.
To be the as proficient a possible, it is best to practice with what you carry.
...and its not like THEY have to pay for it.
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Old April 2, 2012, 06:54 AM   #14
Gary L. Griffiths
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It seems like they would practice with fmjs and save hps for patrol.
True, but.....

Several years ago the Princeton, NJ PD was returning to the station en masse from a range session, when they received a call about a bank robbery with hostages. They responded immediately, of course, with range ammo. When they got there, a 3-time loser had a female teller in front of him with a .44 Mag to her head. He demanded they leave by the time he counted to three, or he would blow her head off.

In the words of their range officer, "Two was the last word he ever said!"

The solids worked just fine.
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Old April 2, 2012, 07:03 AM   #15
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You know, without getting into politics, or how redundant many federal LE agencies are, or how overly criminalized and scrutinized our society has become, the fact is this, when you need a firetruck you need it now, so it better be fast, it better be red and shiny, it better get there on time, and it better pump a whole lot of water. We don't give much thought to them otherwise. They are kind of an abstract.

We also expect performance from cops of every stripe. When we need it we need it yesterday and it better be right. It all costs money. Training of all types costs the citizen. If they use the funds judiciously I have no issue with it. I have an issue with waste. The amount of ammo is well within what I would expect for such a large number of end users, so I hope they use it well.
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Old April 2, 2012, 09:08 AM   #16
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the fact is this, when you need a firetruck you need it now, so it better be fast, it better be red and shiny, it better get there on time, and it better pump a whole lot of water.
But when you do not need a firetruck, they cost too dang much money, the drivers park in places where they shouldn't (You and I would get a ticket for parking in the same place), the fire fighters are all egotistical and think they are smarter than anyone else. They also waste all that money on those training exercises and... and ... and ... and ...

When I was in the military, I remember talking to the supply guy. He was wondering if the amount of ammo he ordered was sufficient. If your not at war, it is, if you are, it isn't.
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Old April 2, 2012, 09:28 AM   #17
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Over on the Truth about Guns they explored this topic in some detail.

Based on the numder of gun-toting employees of the DHS, the ammo order and allotment came to 56 rounds per person per month.

Not much at all when you look at it like that.
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Old April 2, 2012, 09:38 AM   #18
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Its extraordinarily ordinary for the government to over order most anything... I remember in the mid 80s that we had basically unlimited amounts of leftover hand grenades from the Korean and Vietnam war era that we were allowed to throw for a whole week.

I dont think that we actually even ran out at the end of the week it was just everyone was tired of throwing them.

45 ACP ammo was apparently much the same way, my father told stories of having basically unlimited amounts of 45 ammo to shoot as the military had provided it to the ROTC and he was one of the unofficial ROTC gun trainers.

Eventually whatever organization will switch to something different and you will have millions and maybe even tens of millions of leftover rounds.
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Old April 2, 2012, 09:59 AM   #19
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Eventually whatever organization will switch to something different and you will have millions and maybe even tens of millions of leftover rounds
I remember something like that. In about 1960 my father was in the Air Force and was stationed at Eilson AFB, near Fairbanks AK.

We rented a house on "6" mile road (Now called Badger Road). In the basement was a 55 gal drum about half full of surplus military '06 ammo.

My father checked a Model 70 in '06 from the Base Special Services and my brother and I commenced to ruin the barrel of that Model 70. We shot it all up, but I doubt there was any barrel left. We had a ball though.

I have a Sigma 40 cal, so I'm waiting tell DHS gets tired of the 40 cal so I can shoot out the barrel of it.
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Old April 2, 2012, 10:08 AM   #20
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And all this is probably not even counting all the ammo they still have on hand.
Like was mentioned, DHS is a big organization so they gotta spread the fun around to a whole lot of people.

How long is this order supposed to last for before they get more anyway?

Either way it's good people are keeping tabs on this stuff. Gotta keep the government on their toes and keep em from thinking that they can just blow money on whatever they want and noone will notice.
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Old April 2, 2012, 11:37 AM   #21
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The other day, I received a note saying that MILLIONS (don't have the number of millions at hand--but it is many) of .40 S&W hollow-point ammo have been ordered by Homeland Security.


This story has been circulating every few months for the past 3 years since you know who became the commander in chief.
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Old April 3, 2012, 08:37 AM   #22
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The US Border Patrol uses about 4.5 million rounds a year for basic qualification only. That excludes Academy ammo, additional training, issue for individual practice, and remedial training.

USBP is merely one component of CBP, which is merely one component of DHS.

Service-issued duty ammo is the only ammo allowed to be fired through Service-issued weapons.
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Old April 3, 2012, 09:15 AM   #23
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"Its extraordinarily ordinary for the government to over order most anything..."

Every Purple Heart awarded post 1945 was struck in 1944 and 1945 with the expectation that they would be needed for those wounded and killed during the invasion of the Japanese Home Islands.

As of 2003, apparently over 120,000 were still in stock.
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Old April 3, 2012, 01:20 PM   #24
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All three of Pop's Purple Hearts were struck during WWII.
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Old February 7, 2013, 12:53 PM   #25
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Could one of the reasons for the govt buying so much ammo be to make that ammo less assessable to everyone else? They buy so much that it gets scarce. It costs them nothing to buy it, they just put it on the credit card.

I added to this thread even though it is old, because I see the govt is buying even more hollow points now.
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