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Old April 1, 2012, 08:01 PM   #51
ScottRiqui
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I've probably been stopped 8 or 9 times over the last 25 years, mostly for traffic infractions. Every time, the officers have been polite and professional, so I can't believe that's totally a coincidence.
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Old April 1, 2012, 08:30 PM   #52
Willie Sutton
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I think it's highly variable based on location. In both NJ and WI, where I've lived for years, I have never had a problem. In Inglewood CA, however, going into a Hotel and minding my own business the night before a business flight, I saw deep into the maw of a system that could absolutely destroy someone, with what can only be described as completely lawless behaviour that flies directly into the face of the Constitution. That disparity is what completely changed everything for me.

The reason people run from cops is because they are fearful. Some might be fearful of what they have done... some might be fearful for what the cops have done to them previously without reason or with poor reason. Until I was victimized, and there is no other word for it, I would never have believed it was true. But now... no more. No more condition white when I interact with LEO's for me, sorry.... my security requires that I treat every encounter as if they are going to take away my freedom. Treat "the civilians" as the enemy and you alienate them forever. It only takes once. It sticks for life.



Willie

.

Last edited by Willie Sutton; April 1, 2012 at 08:38 PM.
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Old April 1, 2012, 09:34 PM   #53
Fishing_Cabin
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To all of you..

While I do understand some of the stories and issues, I, as for myself, got in to law enforcement because I had a bad experience once. Its not worth going in to here, but it lead me to believe that maybe, just maybe, I could do something better, and have an impact, however so small.

While Willie mentioned, "We who serve in the military don't like cops referring to folks "others than them" as "civilians" either" I can argue the point from past experience on many levels. since it has been mentioned about structure and terms...Quasi-Military or Para-Military structure. While it is true that some law enforcement agencies do define theirself as one of the two of the above, choosing a title for the structure leads to, in itself, kind of grouping or setting itself apart from the other sections of the community. The choice of title, or wording of it is above my pay grade at this moment, so I have little choice in it. Many agencies though use the terms losely as a way to define their structure of rank, no more, no less. Some tend to carry it farther. My agency does not use a term for the structure of rank, other then to define in definition what each rank is, and their function/role in the agency. As with any title or rank though, there are those who feel that it does not apply, is if offensive because of their personal service, or is of less importance because it is not a "real military rank earned" and other similar trains of thought. This is not only limited to the typical ranks in law enforcement such as sgt, lt, capt, etc, but I have also seen it up north when visiting a friend. While visiting my friend this time, I had the, umm, pleasure to learn how an elected commissioner felt it was wrong/dis-service/unethical/etc that a law enfocement leader to be titled a police commissioner. I am sure that some indian tribes may object to the term "Chief" being used in law enforcement and fire service, since neither of these have a recognized or historical tribe. I also know many commissioned military officers who have a huge problem, to put it in a small fashion, that police are called "officers" as well, since they are not commissioned in the military, trained as such, as well as serving as such. Even the term "sworn" I have been "politely" told at times is offensive since it was not "sworn in" in the military sense. In law enforcement the term "sworn" and "unsworn" generally merely describes job duties, and the information available to the person. It shouldnt matter whether its protecting the country as a whole, or a section as small as a local community, or doing just any job/career at all. I could go on but there is little need. I dont care what term or definition, someone will object to it in time.

Dont get me wrong, I am the son of a LtC, and have had family over seas in various ways for years, since before I was even born over the years. One was a even POW. We are all equal in that we serve the better good of our country as a whole.

I do understand the "fear," as it is always a part of my life, in and out of uniform. I lost a couple of friends when they found out I started rookie school years back, who still avoid me to this day, for no other reason. I have other friends/family who act differently toward me noticably when I am in uniform, vs, out of uniform. They speak to me that it is the fear they have of the enforcement aspect. I even have one friend who is a medic, that refuses to take a meal break together when our shifts match up. He says its "uncomfortable" but both of our families do many things outside of our work, and even go out for lunch dinners, cookout together, ball games, etc. The mere difference of the uniform changes things though. Even dealing with the others in the community, I get the tired old "your one of them" type comments no matter how hard I try to keep things equal.

As to the "slothful seals" comment...While growing up the proud son of my father who served and retired as a LtC, I have had my share of many veterns who claim that, for which they are not. Whether seal, ranger, etc, Ive seen my share. The few military members that have "been there, done that" never discuss it, or at least in my experience. It wasnt until a funeral of my great uncle did I learn his service, and his confinement as a POW. It was never mentioned in any way before. My own family members never would acknowledge that they actually served and did their best to move on and avoided anything related to the issue. While I do not serve the country as a whole, I do serve a segment. My service is humble, and while I respect everyones service, small, or large, perhaps we can all be more humble. I am thankful for everyones service, and I am sure they are thankful for my own. Lets try to treat us as an individual person and not a group.

Bless, and pray for those who serve, no matter in what way they do indeed serve.

Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; April 1, 2012 at 10:28 PM.
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Old April 1, 2012, 10:32 PM   #54
Willie Sutton
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That's a thoughtful answer, and is received in the spirit that it was sent. I'll just comment on this:


"While Willie mentioned, "We who serve in the military don't like cops referring to folks "others than them" as "civilians" either" I can argue the point from past experience on many levels. since it has been mentioned about structure and terms...Quasi-Military or Para-Military structure."


What follows is a simple legal fact: There are two "powers" in the United States: Military, and Civil.

Military is the Department of Defense. Period. Their mission is to defend us against external enemies. Nothing more, nothing less.

All others are Civil. The FBI, State Police, Local Police Departments, etc.. they are civil authorities. Those who staff them are civilians. Officer, dispacher, all of them. They are US, they represent US, they serve US, and protect US... and when they start thinking about themelves as different than us, they forget who they serve and they mis-serve us.

One thing that really changes an officers mindset is to think of "us" as civilians while considering himself "something else". Change that mindset, make sure that the officers KNOW that they are civilians, just like the people they supposedly serve and protect, and you remove a huge barrier of communication.

The term "Civilian" used by a LEO is an insult to civilians, because it serves to elevate the self-view of the police to a status above that of a "civilian". Who is supposed to be serving who, and who should be more humble?


Thanks again for your thoughtful post. I can assure you that the LEO's of the Ingleside CA PD could use some of your wisdom.


Willie

.
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Old April 1, 2012, 10:48 PM   #55
Fishing_Cabin
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Quote:
The term "Civilian" used by a LEO is an insult to civilians, because it serves to elevate the self-view of the police to a status above that of a "civilian". Who is supposed to be serving who, and who should be more humble?
I am glad it was recieved in the spirit that I meant. I can, and do understand the insult as mentioned. As to the "who is serving who" part, it is up to the courts to decide, as there has been a limit placed on the protect aspect, but not the serve.

Just speaking for myself. While I am glad to respond, and help/serve in any way I am able to with in the law/policy, there are certain parts I am unable to help with. Such dispatched calls have been, but arent limited to, plumbing issues (repairing water heater), parenting issues (child wont stay in the house), electrical issues (they didnt pay the bill), and on and on. More to your point though as for the service part. I feel there is a line between being there to help (service), and being there to enforce (protect). Many times with the help/service issue, it is beyond what we can do as an officer. Even if we know how, we are limited in tools, time, and legal responsibility, even though many of us, do indeed try our best to resolve any issue we come accross. The enforce/protect issue, while having been before the supreme court in Castle Rock v. Gonzales, is still contested in many ways due to the conflict between serve AND protect. As to the enforce/protect issue, at times our hands are tied as well due to laws enacted, or court decisions. There can be no 100% on both, only do the best that is possible. Many enforcement actions only "serve" to protect the public at large, but is a punishment on the "individual", which is another part of the issue. I do forsee, a limit placed on the "serve" part of law enforcement at some point in the future by the courts.

Respectfully,
Fishing_Cabin

P.S. As to who should be more humble, my opinion is we should be equal.

Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; April 1, 2012 at 11:01 PM.
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Old April 2, 2012, 01:47 AM   #56
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Quote:
I belong to several forums and these type of topics come up all the time.I don't understand all these traffic stop stories.I have been driving for 46 years and have been stopped twice last time 40 years ago.I have to make a guess that many people who belong to gun forums drive like complete idiots?Or maybe they are just keyboard Ninjas?
I have been driving close to 30 years and have been stopped numerous times for speeding, talking on the cell etc.
When I am stopped I turn on the dome light, keep my hands on the wheel and obey all commands and speak politely.

A few years ago I was stopped doing 91 in a 65mph zone. After being pulled over the officer asked me if I had ever been pulled over in that state before.
I replied yes 2 years prior. He then notified me that the prior ticket was showing as unpaid and my license was suspended due to it.
I told him that it was paid and how and where I paid it.
He could have thrown me in jail for the weekend and let the judge figure it out on Monday however he let me go with a ticket and a notice to appear.

I think the way you interact with the police goes a long way towards how you are treated as long as they don't have their mind already made up on how they are going to treat you.
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Old April 2, 2012, 05:40 AM   #57
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No offense to anyone but I don't mind being called a civilian. I was in the army on active duty for three years, three more reserve and a year in the D.C. National Guard but it feels odd to be referred to as a "vet." But of all the people who work where I do, only one other served in the armed forces.
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Old April 2, 2012, 07:52 AM   #58
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Willie Sutton,

The reasons why you were stopped are fairly obvious. #1) Its a high crime area #2) You were at a hotel which probably has a history of crime. I'm guessing drugs and prostitution. Lets face it, a lot of these hotels are not really used by honest business travelers looking for a night of sleep. #3) You seemed to fit the description of the kind of guy they bust all the time at this hotel and were there during the time that crime usually happens. Im guessing the hotel is probably frequented by "johns" and other notorious figures. #4) There is other conduct you are either not telling us about or not realizing that made them suspicious.

The stop you are describing is a "Terry stop" and has been argued in the Supreme Court. The police have a right to conduct such stops. I know "it sucks" to be on the receiving end, but you have to realize these stops keep us all safer and the community free of crime. Lets say there was a stranger loitering outside of your home for an extended period of time without any obvious reason. Wouldnt it be reasonable for the police to stop and question that individual or would you rather the individual just keep loitering outside your home without anyone questioning their presence?

The military is unlike any law enforcement agency. Almost anyone who meets some basic criteria can enlist in the military whereas very few ever make it to become police officers. The police academy is at least as rigorous or more rigorous then any boot camp in the military. When you get through the basic training in the military, then your job is relatively secure. Even if you screw up a few times or your commander thinks less of you then you can continue on in the military. However, on any police force they will monitor you closely for at least 3 years. Any screw ups or if the Chief doesnt think your a good fit then your out the door before the probationary period expires. During the first 2-3 years on the job, you can expect there to be at least monthly, if not weekly, meetings critiquing your performance and they will watch your every move. After the 2-3 year probationary period, it doesnt end there. You are constantly held to a higher standard and every action is scrutinized. Unlike the military, you need to be able to justify whatever you do in a court of law. Every officer eventually ends up on the witness stand being questioned by a defense attorney with the whole world watching. So not only do you have to get through the selection process, make it through the academy, the probationary period and the scrutiny, but you also have to justify yourself every step of the way on the witness stand. If any conduct in the future threatens your credibility or witness potential, then you are fired. Its clearly not easy.

As for Dunkin Donuts and out of shape officers, people do get older. The city or state cannot simply run an individual out of the department because they are getting older. On the other hand, the military does run you out as you get older with their "up or out" policy. You will have a clearer understanding of this as you get older. A 45 year old officer can be a valuable asset to an agency, but on the other hand a 45 year old enlisted man in the Navy is seen as a liability.

If you need examples of the rigorous training, then go to youtube and there are many videos of actual academies. It is much much easier to be thrown out of these academies then a regular military basic training. The standards of conduct and performance are much higher.
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Old April 2, 2012, 08:47 AM   #59
Willie Sutton
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"The reasons why you were stopped are fairly obvious. #1) Its a high crime area #2) You were at a hotel which probably has a history of crime. I'm guessing drugs and prostitution. Lets face it, a lot of these hotels are not really used by honest business travelers looking for a night of sleep. #3) You seemed to fit the description of the kind of guy they bust all the time at this hotel and were there during the time that crime usually happens. Im guessing the hotel is probably frequented by "johns" and other notorious figures. #4) There is other conduct you are either not telling us about or not realizing that made them suspicious. "


I see... so making a hotel reservation with a well known 3-4 star national chain on Orbitz at a hotel one mile from the LAX Airport, and then parking in their lot in a rental car, and turning on the dome light to wrap up my GPS cord and toss it into my briefcase is sufficient "probable cause" to conduct a felony stop? No acceptance of my offer to show my ID, my boarding pass, my hotel reservation letter, or anything? Just "on the ground, handcuffed, head banged against the door of the car, a search of my private papers, my phone, etc.". This when I am a clean cut military pilot with a uniform, helmet, DOD Identification, and all of my things in order.


And you defend this sort of behaviour?

And you are a cop?

Uhh.... Yes, this is *precisely* why it's "Us" v/s "You":

Nobody but a cop would make any excuses for this sort of industrialized civil rights violation. There is a special name for a place where the Police make the rules. It's called a "Police State". I entered one that night and I no longer recognized where I was.

Listen to the excuses: "It's fighting the war on drugs", "fighting the war on prostitution"... the WAR... the end justifies the means I guess... after all it's a war. The language defines the attitude: "civilians"... "fighting the war:"... fighting the enemy... who is us.

I was never treated like the "enemy" before. And you were not cause for any alarm by this honest citizen. But for the rest of my life you sure are the enemy now, not in a way where I wish you any harm, but just in a way that makes me want to RUN AWAY, which is the reason this thread on the forum started. Why do people run from the police? It's because they are TERRIFIED. Yes, some are probably bad folks... but some, like me, have just been abused and are truly frightened. I can see now why they run of they think they can get away.


In contrast: In my town, if I seemed out of place at 10:00 PM, my local cops would have come up, rolled down the window, and asked if I was OK, lost, needed assistance, etc.. to engage me in conversation to determine if I was a good guy or a bad guy. That's OK... and would meet the law enforcement objective while not causing someone like me to become the "enemy". I'd have smiled, offered to show my ID and airline ticket and hotel reservation, and that would have been the end of it. I'd have tossed them one of my unit coins with a thanks and been on my way.

And this disparity in the way things are done is, sir, the reason I want nothing to do with LEO's and all I can think about when I am around them is leaving. Thank GOD I did not have my SAA in my suitcase being transported home. although I am certain it would have been perfectly legal, I am equally certain that I would have been tossed into jail for having it, after being stopped and held with a loaded weapon aimed at me for "probable cause" for my "crime" of being a traveler at a major airport.

As for police academy training, I suggest that you go down to Coronado sometime and see how the SEAL's train. Saying that it's harder to get onto and stay on a local police force is harder than being selected for SEAL training is absolutely ridiculous.

Sorry, Officer: I'm just calling it like I see it. I'm sure you're a stand up guy at home, but might also be a guy who would toss my car and throw me in jail if you had the least chance to do so. Maybe not...probably not in fact, but I cannot take that chance. You want to fight a war? Sign up with your recruiter for a real one. I did.


As for Dunkin Donuts and out of shape officers, people do get older. The city or state cannot simply run an individual out of the department because they are getting older. On the other hand, the military does run you out as you get older with their "up or out" policy. You will have a clearer understanding of this as you get older. A 45 year old officer can be a valuable asset to an agency, but on the other hand a 45 year old enlisted man in the Navy is seen as a liability.


I'm 53, I run, can outfight the kids, and when people call me "Captain" they mean it. The only thing that would gain me more respect would be to be called "Chief", and if you know anything about the Navy you'll get it.



Smile, it's all OK... I'm here discuss to learn from each other.


Willie

.

Last edited by Willie Sutton; April 2, 2012 at 09:17 AM.
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Old April 2, 2012, 08:50 AM   #60
BlueTrain
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I don't mean to pick on you, Mr. Sutton, but you might have chosen a better name to use on this forum.
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Old April 2, 2012, 08:54 AM   #61
Willie Sutton
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I'm a SASS member: Willie is my SASS nom-de-guerre...

Glad you picked up on it though. Kids these days have no clue about Willie the Actor....

Smile, we're all here to learn from each other. Maybe a few LEO's can learn from me.


Willie

.
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Old April 2, 2012, 09:13 AM   #62
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I thought to myself, "Maybe the CA cops thought you were a bank robber." With a name like W.S., it could be an honest mistake.
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Old April 2, 2012, 09:15 AM   #63
Willie Sutton
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Humor Helps...

Willie

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Old April 2, 2012, 09:15 AM   #64
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The thing about law enforcement is that you have to have common sense and be able to see deeper into situations to be able to ask the right questions to find out the real story.

I dont know the particulars of why a group of 8 officers stopped you. It sounds like it might have been some sort of stake out at the hotel and there was something about your behavior which triggered a response. While I dont know those particular officers, I can guess those officers probably grew up in and around that community. They patrol that community everyday and there are probably weekly, if not daily, meetings and discussions of what goes on there. I can hazard a guess that the officers know exactly what goes on in that hotel and can articulate exact reasons for the stop. As how the system works, however, those officers cannot come to this forum to defend their actions. The only place where they are legally required to defend their actions is in a court of law and I am certain if they were brought there they would be able to articulate in great detail. Who knows, maybe they might have been looking for someone in the military because of thefts at the base...

I wouldnt take offense for being stopped. Sometimes we behave in a manner which stirs some suspicion. There was one time in my life where I was lost and had to turn around several times and so I was stopped by an officer to ask what I was doing. I didnt feel offended, but I understood and it did look unusual for someone to be constantly looping around looking and acting confused.

I do know the northeast quite well and can tell you that if there was any suspicious activity at an area hotel then they would do the exact same thing as the officers on the west coast. They would basically stake out the hotel looking for suspicious behavior and confront those who they feel might be committing a crime.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; April 2, 2012 at 02:33 PM. Reason: Snark
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Old April 2, 2012, 09:25 AM   #65
Willie Sutton
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"The thing about law enforcement is that you have to have common sense and be able to see deeper into situations to be able to ask the right questions to find out the real story"

Nobody bothered to ask: My plea to show my ID and paperwork was laughed at: "We'll find it all when we search your wallet" as they all laughed at the handcuffed pilot laying on his belly in a parking lot with a gun aimed at his head. No common sense, no attempt to do the right thing... I was just non-human scum to them at that moment, completely dehumanized in their view, not worthy of even being able to offer ID. At least in SERE school we knew the cadre was acting (we escaped, BTW)



"I do know the northeast quite well and can tell you that if there was any suspicious activity at an area hotel then they would do the exact same thing as the officers on the west coast. They would basically stake out the hotel looking for suspicious behavior and confront those who they feel might be committing a crime."


I can tell you that they would not have done so with drawn weapons... "Take that to the bank" says Willie...

Make all of the excuses you like, this one incident, legal or not, made a lifelong "non-supporter" of the PBA out of me. I will never give undeserved respect to a police officer. I will comply with their requests, but only out of fear... take that to the bank too. By fear we are controlled. It worked for me.


To your question: Sorry, Officer: I have a firm policy of not answering any questions. Your colleagues in California taught me that. May I leave now or am I being detained?


Willie

.

Last edited by Willie Sutton; April 2, 2012 at 09:37 AM.
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Old April 2, 2012, 10:01 AM   #66
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Willie: I feel your pain, I've had that happen a few times in CA. SOME of the CA. Police think they're John Wayne. But Inglewood?? real high crime rate there. I have three friends that were robbed there at gunpoint, not a good place to be,and believe me your not the type of people they generaly deal with. I'm not backing that action,I just understand why after living in So.Cal.
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Old April 2, 2012, 10:22 AM   #67
Willie Sutton
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"Willie: I feel your pain, I've had that happen a few times in CA. SOME of the CA. Police think they're John Wayne. But Inglewood?? real high crime rate there. I have three friends that were robbed there at gunpoint, not a good place to be,and believe me your not the type of people they generaly deal with. I'm not backing that action,I just understand why after living in So.Cal."


Yeah... so it was explained to me by the shift supervisor after it was all done, and I was making my complaint to him about the treatment I received. But even so... and after just taking the Orbitz advice about closest and best hotel to LAX... give me a break.... there are other ways to stop someone and ask "are you lost" while really wanting to know "W T F are you doing here?" I fly out of Burbank now when I need to get to Edwards AFB, it's closer anyhow.


Capt. Obvious: I'm torn between (A) defending my honor and (B) sticking to my firm policy of not answering questions asked by strangers. I'll compromise by sending you my Linkedin profile by private message. Consider it a gift, not an obligation. We probably have mutual friends. Feel free to PM, it's gauche to make such a challenge in public.

Truly also, consider my posts a gift to help LEO's not make the same mistakes that these guys made. No reason at all to take someone who is basically inclined to like LEO's and make a lifelong skeptic out of him. I'm one of the good guys, one of the ones you are paid to protect, or so I had always believed.


Willie

.

Last edited by Willie Sutton; April 2, 2012 at 10:39 AM.
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Old April 2, 2012, 10:29 AM   #68
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I bet if I was to post a story about some cop rescuing a child who was trapped in a vehicle after an accident, the topic would turn into a cop bashing convention.

It don't take much smarts while reading these topics to figure out which ones always seem to flunk the Hello Test.
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Old April 2, 2012, 11:03 AM   #69
zincwarrior
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Quote:
Quote:
As a LEO, a good majority of the people you deal on a daily basis with are scumbags

Good to know law enforcement feels that way...
Probably really accurate though.
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Old April 2, 2012, 11:12 AM   #70
zincwarrior
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Quote:
I used to do a good amount of traveling up
and down the Maine turnpike early in the am
(from Mass to Bangor then up the Airline to Calais).
I got stopped many times.
One thing I do is always turn map lights and
the dome light on and it gets appreciated.
ron
Hadn't thought of that. Its probably an excellent idea.
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Old April 2, 2012, 01:24 PM   #71
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My grandmother, little old lady who has never been involved in any sort of illegal activity, who wouldn't even let me pick up a dollar from the street because it "wasn't mine if I hadn't earned it" doesn't trust or like cops and won't let them past the front steps without a warrant. Now why would someone who has no reason whatsoever to fear arrest or anything like that from police, be so distrusting of them?

I don't think they're all bad, I've met and dealt with some very cool cops. Unfortunately the stories of their abuses outshine and outweigh the stories of whatever good they do.
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Old April 2, 2012, 02:03 PM   #72
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Sometimes the police just get it horribly wrong.

Quote:
Kenneth Chamberlain, Sr., a 68-year-old African-American Marine veteran, was fatally shot in November by White Plains, NY, police who responded to a false alarm from his medical alert pendant. The officers broke down Chamberlain’s door, tasered him, and then shot him dead. Audio of the entire incident was recorded by the medical alert device in Chamberlain’s apartment. We’re joined by family attorneys and Chamberlain’s son, Kenneth Chamberlain, Jr., who struggles through tears to recount his father’s final moments, including the way police officers mocked his father’s past as a marine. "For them to look at my father that way, (with) no regard for his life, every morning I think about it," he says
http://tucsoncitizen.com/three-sonor...ies-in-tucson/

I suppose it was Chamberlain's fault for not behaving in a deprecating manner.
You'd think when police make a well being check, they might decide force was off the table. If you thought that you'd be wrong.

Quote:
Police Tasered an 86-year-old disabled grandma in her bed and stepped on her oxygen hose until she couldn't breathe, after her grandson called 911 seeking medical assistance, the woman and her grandson claim in Oklahoma City Federal Court. Though the grandson said, "Don't Taze my granny!" an El Reno police officer told another cop to "Taser her!" and wrote in his police report that he did so because the old woman "took a more aggressive posture in her bed," according to the complaint.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/06/24/28330.htm

"Took a more aggressive posture in her bed" Reasonable cause to taze the old girl. At least she wasn't one of the growing number of taser deaths.

Sometimes the police are just going to kill you. Google ,unarmed man shot by police, and you get 2 1/2 million hits.
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Old April 2, 2012, 02:15 PM   #73
Fishing_Cabin
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Join Date: February 10, 2010
Posts: 717
Quote:
Originally Posted by zincwarrior
Hadn't thought of that. Its probably an excellent idea.
The dome/map light idea is a great one. Some others would be to roll the window down while you are stoping the vehicle. Know where the registration and insurance card to your vehicle is, and keep it together in a handy location, such as maybe clipped to the visor, or I personally keep mine partially stuck in the plastic trim above the drivers door at the head liner, so that if I am stoped, I dont worry an officer by reaching around or digging for it.

Other ideas, are just pretty common sense that sometimes we get busy and forget. Keep the lights working. Enure your tag is clean, visable, and the tag light does indeed work. If you drive a pick up, or are pulling an open trailer, keep any debris picked up, because if it blows/falls out on to the road it can be a reason to be stopped.

Another thought for those who have concealed carry permits (or whatever your state calls it) is to keep the concealed carry permit behind your license, and keep both somewhere easy to get to, and also, of course, keep in the habit of ensuring you have it with you when you go out.

Where to keep your hands on a traffic stop? You can keep them on the steering wheel, or if the window is down, comfortably as possible lay them on the door so the officer may see them as he walks up to your car. Or try at least keep them easily visable in some matter. it may be a good idea if possible to have your registration, license, concealed carry permit, etc in your visable hands as well. If you dont know where they are, or if they are in a compartment, tell the officer, and ask, "may I open the glove box (or whatever place it is in) and get it for you?" Dont just reach over and start opening things.

The reasons why I have responded to this thread and others similar, have been to try to help others maybe understand, to share ideas, to let some people know there are officers willing to try to help when/how they are able, also to help myself try to improve on my skills in dealing with some folks who may be leary, or dislike law enforcement for whatever reason, and to try to understand those who may have had a bad experience in the past, so perhaps maybe I can better relate to them if I come accross a person like this at work.

I hope everyone here has a wonderful day!
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Old April 2, 2012, 02:29 PM   #74
zincwarrior
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Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,289
To be honest, if someone said registration I'd have a blank look on my face (my Wife would proffer thats normal ). We have the registration sticker on the driver side, and insurance. I don't think Texas has a separate registration thats normally required to be carried.

Its been awhile (knock on wood).

I worry about my teenage boy in this regard. He's a band geek with band geeks, but you never know what can happen.
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Old April 2, 2012, 02:59 PM   #75
Fishing_Cabin
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Join Date: February 10, 2010
Posts: 717
True, you never can know what may happen.

A couple of other tips for ya'll too. If you have an experience with law enforcement for which you want to make a complaint against an officer, try not to play the one up game by telling the officer you are going to make a complaint, or trying to argue to that point. When you are free to leave, go by the agency's nearest office as soon as you are able with in reason. If you were charged, having the documents with you, as they, at least here, will have date, time, officer/agency info, etc. If its a verbal warning or similar, take a note of the time, and ask for the officers name/number and the agency. This can be done generally without trying to be arguementative. When you are free to leave stop somewhere up the road and write down this info as its generally better then trying to remember it.

If its an unmarked vehicle, late at night etc, the majority of the agencies I have been around, including my own, have no issue with the driver slowing down, and proceding to a near-by, but well lit area. It can be a good idea to also turn on your 4-way flashers as well.
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