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Old March 30, 2012, 01:53 PM   #26
HALL,AUSTIN
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I had a situation when I was about 15 where the police were called. 6 friends and I were playing airsoft and the police were called. They showed up, saw our guns and in turn drew theirs. I slowly put my plastic slinger on the ground, took 3 steps back, and laid down with my fingers laced on the back of my head. All my friends did the same. We were frisked, and I notified them that I had an airsoft pistol in my tac vest, it was removed and then the boys in blue and the laugh of their lives.

They told us that they recieved a call saying that multiple people armed with "machine guns" were running around shooting at eachother. One of the police even shothis leg with my pistol. They told us to go home and play in the woods next time. I learned two things from that.
1. Remain calm and do EXACTLY as you are told.
2. Don't ever, ever assume that someone knows an airsoft gun is not a real gun.
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Old March 30, 2012, 10:33 PM   #27
Willie Sutton
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Just an observation for LEO's:

Don't refer to the public as "civilians": Unless you serve in the military, YOU are a representative of civil authority, and are very much a civilian too.

The "them and us" barrier needs to be dropped if you want to earn the respect of the public. Don't build an emotional fence keeping you away from the people you serve. Thinking and saying publicly "civilians" brings you to the mindset that you are not a civilian but somehow have a different set of rules to follow. And never forget that you serve US, not the other way around. Show respect to gain respect.



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Old March 31, 2012, 04:18 AM   #28
Fishing_Cabin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Sutton
Just an observation for LEO's:

Don't refer to the public as "civilians": Unless you serve in the military, YOU are a representative of civil authority, and are very much a civilian too.

The "them and us" barrier needs to be dropped if you want to earn the respect of the public. Don't build an emotional fence keeping you away from the people you serve. Thinking and saying publicly "civilians" brings you to the mindset that you are not a civilian but somehow have a different set of rules to follow. And never forget that you serve US, not the other way around. Show respect to gain respect.

Willie
I'm not trying to be confrontational, I really am not. But after reading your post on this thread, and rereading my own post in the thread as well, I dont see where I am putting up the "them and us' barrier" nor have I mentioned "civilians." I mentioned that I am a police officer, as well as one other person here said they were an offficer, and one other poster here mentioned he was a previous officer, and thats all I saw mention of being in law enforcement. I also stated some personal opinions and experience in the best way I could think to word it at the time.

I have tried the best I could to avoid the issues you mentioned when I composed my post, I have tried to also participate, and join in on the discussion, instead of being in a fence away from the issue. I have also been trying to give respect as well.

As an officer, I have conciously tried to remove this barrier in my professional business with the general public as well. As yet, the "them and us" barrier still exists since others still see this line when I try to communicate with them honestly, and doing my best to remove any barrier that I am able.

Perhaps you can shed some light on where I went wrong?

Not really trying to pick you out, since you probably are grouping all officers in a group. I try to break through these wall/barriers/fences/etc, but no matter in what way, or how hard I try, they remain.

Please no offense intended at all. Just honest discussion

Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; March 31, 2012 at 05:07 AM.
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Old March 31, 2012, 06:22 AM   #29
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There are definitely things I don't like about the way policing is done now in the "modern age", but it's mostly political and institutional complaints and nothing to do with the people doing the job. Even so, I can't believe that there's actually people here who think cops are gonna try to trick you into making the wrong move just so thay can get a chance to shoot you. I really hope that was just trolling.
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Old March 31, 2012, 06:46 AM   #30
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We recently voted in a new county Sheriff which seems to have changed the outlook of the organization. No more black BDU's and drogleg holsters. Now the deputies are wearing white, blue, or brown uniform type shirts and khakis or jeans.
I know the new Sheriff personally, know his Dad, went to school with his wife, and know some of the deputies personally(same with old one, too). The Gestapo look is gone. My daughter was a dispatcher for the old department and I had lots of info on their practices which I wasn't too happy with. A couple of the older deputies lost their position and that was probably a good thing since I think they were having more control over the operation of the unit than the old Sheriff.
The local police chief is very selfcentered and egotistic-thinks he is better than everyone else. I wouldn't trust him to "do the right thing" if another way suited his purpose. I caught him running a STOP sign a while back for no reason other than he was in the city cop car and knew no one would correct him. I won't say he would shoot a person outright but I would not get in the way of his agenda unless I really wanted to find out.
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Old March 31, 2012, 07:46 AM   #31
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I am not sure about america but here a police officer got his pistol out of his holster without good reason he could be reported. Stopping and approaching a car would not be geed reason. Unless you put an officers life in danger then i don't see that he would have a reason to shoot you. Not falling his instructions is not a good reason.
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Old March 31, 2012, 08:01 AM   #32
Grant D
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When I get pulled over I roll down the window and put my hands on the wheel at 10 and 2 with my license and CHL in my hand, and it's yes sir, or no sir to their questions.
Officer Fishing Cabin: as a "civilian" I thank you for your service,and every other LEO that puts their life on the line every day for me, and thank you for your rational coments on the subject.
There's a lot of discussions on here about how to get out of a bad situation,and I guess people forget that we can run away,but the LEOS have to run towards it! I thank Peace Officers for their service, just as I thank combat veterns. They both put their lives on the line every day for us.

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Old March 31, 2012, 08:48 AM   #33
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I used to do a good amount of traveling up
and down the Maine turnpike early in the am
(from Mass to Bangor then up the Airline to Calais).
I got stopped many times.
One thing I do is always turn map lights and
the dome light on and it gets appreciated.
ron
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Old March 31, 2012, 09:19 AM   #34
Willie Sutton
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I was not making reference to any poster here when I made my "civilian" comments, certainly not to the gentleman who replied above, and a private message was sent expressing this. All I was doing was to comment on the militarization of policing: Put a guy in a military type uniform, issue him a "carbine", and then tell him that anyone could be a terrorist and we have a police state. It's more true in some places than in others: prudence dictates that I expect it to be "worse" and not "better" when I come into contact with an unknown LEO. Show respect to gain respect: That's a two way street.


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Old March 31, 2012, 11:34 AM   #35
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Quote:
There are definitely things I don't like about the way policing is done now in the "modern age", but it's mostly political and institutional complaints and nothing to do with the people doing the job. Even so, I can't believe that there's actually people here who think cops are gonna try to trick you into making the wrong move just so thay can get a chance to shoot you. I really hope that was just trolling.
That's exactly what happened in Las Vegas as people were evacuating a Costco a year or two ago. I doubt that the trap was intentional, but not sure that matters now to Erik Scott or his surviving family.
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Old March 31, 2012, 12:21 PM   #36
Fishing_Cabin
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Willie,

No offense taken or meant. You actually brought up a couple of good points with your post, which was why I ask in a way "how to bring down the wall" so to speak. As an officer its a constant battle, not only to ensure that you dont misspeak and alienate some folks by pure accident, but also to keep that wall/barrier/etc down to as small as possible. While I do understand your point of the Us vs them, the flip side is of a regular person dealing with an officer is the fear of an officer due to the officer's enforcement powers. I hope you and others understand both sides as I do.

In closing though, I do enjoy a friendly debate, took no offense, and did not intend any toward you. Sometimes its great to have a friendly chat on "how to do things" and get other ideas...No harm

The best to you and others on this forum.

Enjoy the wonderfully warm, brightly sunny, and incredibly awesome day!
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Old March 31, 2012, 01:57 PM   #37
Glenn Dee
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Again... I'd advise folks to speak to the police as you would want then to speak to you. One reason the police refer to non police as civilians because the police organzations are considered quasi-military. Quasi-Military to insure order and discipline within the organization.

Of course the police are a civil authority, and when compared to the US military are civilians.

As a retired officer after many years I find it increasingly difficult to deal with the modern American Police officer. They seem to have a different mindset, and mission statement than when I was on patrol. It seems that the police try to wear the most intimidating uniforms, and equipment they can find. It seems the put officer safety ahead of public safety and public order. It seems that a friendly helpfull attitude has been replaced with sullen, threatening, and negative attitude with no reguard for the CIVILIAN they are dealing with. They seem to put the welfare of an animal ahead of a human (police dogs). K-9 Officer? whaaa?? how do they get the dog to swear an oath?

Sorry I didnt mean to go off on a rant.
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Old March 31, 2012, 03:01 PM   #38
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There is such a variety of police departments across the country that it is hard to generalize. The County Sheriffs seem to be entirely different in every way. In fact, they tend to even dress differently. Ironically, there is a world-wide trend for the police everywhere to dress roughly the same, with all blue uniforms. The police in some places traditionally wore green, for instance.

I never thought of local police departments as being quasi-military. They don't look like and they don't act like it. Curiously, no one has mentioned so far, I think, the various state police departments. They are often very much quasi-military. In some places, the state police office is referred to as a barracks and they do tend to be used as the governor's police reserve, in a manner of speaking. But you would still behave the same way no matter who stopped you.

I've heard policemen use the expression "citizen."
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Old March 31, 2012, 05:33 PM   #39
Willie Sutton
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"One reason the police refer to non-police as civilians because the police organzations are considered quasi-military'


That's the problem: THEY consider themselves to be quasi-military when in fact they are civil *servants* serving the *citizens* who pay the bills.

Two observations, from two different viewpoints:

(1): We the citizens don't think so well of being policed by people who think even partially that they are "military" and we are "civilians". We're all on the same side here (or ought to be).

(2): We who serve in the military don't like cops referring to folks "others than them" as "civilians" either... you're a civilian unless you are bearing arms against *foreign enemies* or preparing to do so, and work for the DOD. Even the Coast Guard are "civilians". Department of Homeland Security does not count either.


Way too many patrol-car commandos these days with departments that are spending DHS grant money on (fill in the blank and add "tactical" to every word in the advertisements that they read). That brings out the mindset that they are soldiers, not just patrol cops. Us v/s Them... a story as old as the first guy who had more power than the guy next to him.



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Old April 1, 2012, 05:33 AM   #40
BlueTrain
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You may be right (far right, maybe) but is it the fault of the police?

We have had the tendency over the last few decades to describe things as "wars," when they are merely social and sometimes law enforcement objectives or programs. From the war on poverty (we lost) to the war on drugs (we also lost), everything is called a war.

If all of those things are wars, who's the enemy? Maybe it all started when we called real shooting wars "police actions." What a twist!

Personally, I still don't see it in our local police departments and I think you are mostly overstating your case.
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Old April 1, 2012, 05:41 AM   #41
Fishing_Cabin
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Old April 1, 2012, 09:35 AM   #42
Willie Sutton
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"We have had the tendency over the last few decades to describe things as "wars," when they are merely social and sometimes law enforcement objectives or programs"


Precisely.

The real thing that someone like me finds frightening is the difference between departments. Where I live I wave at my local LEO's on the road, have helped them at first aid scenes, and generally greet everyone with a smile. If I am pulled over I know it's for a social call mixed with the news that my brake light is out. All good.

Then I go to California and am sitting in my rental car in the parking lot of a hotel near the airport at 10:00PM, wrapping up my GPS cord before going into the lobby to check in for a nap before an early flight out. Without warning two police cars, with 4 guys pull up in front and in back of my car, jump out, weapons drawn, and proceed to carry out what can only be described as a felony stop. No chance for me to produce my (military) ID, or answer any questions. handcuffed, tossed into a car after having my pockets turned inside out, and then watch my car be disassembled, my wallet stripped, my iPhone searched of it's email and text messages, all of the photos on my iPhone looked at, and basically violated in every way. When it was all done (and I had the shift sergent standing there in front of me, with a pocket copy of the US Constitution in my hand that was reading from), his answer was "Well, you are a white guy in a nice car sitting in ther parking lot of a hotel on the wrong side of the freeway... this is a high crime area and we wanted to know whet you were doing here"..

Interestingly enough, the photo that was on the screen of my iPhone when it was returned was of my holding a Colt SAA out in the desert that I had taken a month before this. It was 200 photos back from the end of the photos, so they had looked at every one and concentrated on this one. Lesson learned there... always have your phone on "lock" so nobody can pick it up and rifle thru your personal text messages, emails, and pictures "under color of law". My wife seriously thought about suing for invasion of her privacy for them looking over some photos of her that she had sent me to encourage me to come back home sooner... you can well imagine what they looked like..

It's obvious that some departments are OK and others are simply enforcing their idea of a police state upon us. The lesson I learned from this stop is to trust no LEO that I come into contact with, and that you can be tossed into jail for essentially nothing. If I had been legally transporting that Colt SAA with me in my suitcase to be checked as baggage to go home with me, I am CERTAIN that I would have been arrested for no reason at all. No doubt, zero... these guys were doing their very best to make an arrest.


Bottom line: I was in genuine Condition White, rolled down my window with a smile, said "What's up, Officer" and was held at gunpoint and was traumatized and terrified. I'm a fighter pilot, BTW... not much scares me. I have NEVER been threatened by any criminal like I was threatened by those who had "to protect and serve" painted on their car.


I'm in condition Orange now every time I interact with a cop. They taught me this, not anyone else. If you are a LEO and you read this, know full well why guys like me want nothing to do with you. We can't tell the good ones from the bad. The only prudent choice when confronted with the unknown is to consider all of you to be bad. Sure I'll be polite... I'll also be terrified.



Willie


.

Last edited by Willie Sutton; April 1, 2012 at 09:42 AM.
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Old April 1, 2012, 10:29 AM   #43
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Quote:
The County Sheriffs seem to be entirely different in every way.
Interesting that. Might it have something to do with the Sheriff being an elected official rather than a political appointee? A while back the county I grew up in tried to move from a county sheriff to police department. Thankfully the voters didn't fall for it.
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Old April 1, 2012, 10:45 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cascade1911 View Post
Interesting that. Might it have something to do with the Sheriff being an elected official rather than a political appointee? A while back the county I grew up in tried to move from a county sheriff to police department. Thankfully the voters didn't fall for it.
In my area id take the local police over the sheriffs anyday. The police are respectful and the sheriffs all have little man syndrome and its just annoying.

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Old April 1, 2012, 11:24 AM   #45
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Fairfax County, Virginia, has had a police department only since about 1940 but there's still a sheriff. But I wouldn't call the chief of police a political appointee. They are recruited, often nationally, as law enforcement administrators. They are hired, not exactly appointed, and by elected county officials. I don't know which system produces the better results but it might depend on what results you are looking for. Some sheriffs get bad press any more.
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Old April 1, 2012, 11:59 AM   #46
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Uh-oh, this is another one of those threads which pick apart and criticize the actions of police officers. Usually the moderators shut these things down fast, but not so fast. Please allow me a chance to counter these overly critical remarks.

First, it is harder to get on your average police force then to get a position on the US Navy SEAL Team. Every time there is an advertisement placed for police officers there are literally thousands of applications received from some very impressive individuals. There is a selection process which includes testing and intensive interviews. There is a myth that you have to know someone to get on this force, but that is just a myth. The fact is you still have to pass all that testing to get on. Once you are aboard, the selection process is not over. There is the academy and then the probabation period which not everyone makes it through. Your first three years aboard you are very carefully watched and the Chief can send you packing VERY QUICKLY. Just try showing up late for work or get caught off your game and you are gone just like that.

Second, managing a law enforcement agency is one of the toughest jobs to have out there. Before you become critical of their decisions then ask yourself if you can do better. Most people simply cant do any better and the decisions being made are actually the best ones which could be made.

Third, there is no officer out there who makes commission. Believe me, they dont want to do extra work like the next guy. If you find yourself being pulled over, questioned or searched then there is a reason. Most of the time you only hear one side of the story, but if the officers could talk freely then they would enlighten you on the other reasons. Remember, there are two sides to every story. I authored a thread in this forum telling you exactly how to behave and what to say during these moments. Basically, stand still, say nothing, obey orders and verbally state to the officers you do not want to be searched. I wouldnt focus on the reasons why they are doing what they are doing, but focus on your behavior at the time. Stay still, stay silent, dont answer questions and vocally object to any searches which are being performed.

Fourth, the initial post of this thread is about the shooting in Pasadena. Lets keep in mind that none of that would have happened if the person involved did not run from the Police. If they had followed my simple strategy outlined previously then they might be walking free right now.
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Old April 1, 2012, 02:33 PM   #47
BlueTrain
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In this thread the police are criticized for doing thing that in other threads the police in other countries, especially the U.K., are criticized for not doing.
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Old April 1, 2012, 07:32 PM   #48
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First, it is harder to get on your average police force then to get a position on the US Navy SEAL Team. Every time there is an advertisement placed for police officers there are literally thousands of applications received from some very impressive individuals.
I'm not really sure how to fairly compare apples to apples, but consider that the NYPD alone outnumbers the active-duty SEAL community by more than ten to one.
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Old April 1, 2012, 07:37 PM   #49
Willie Sutton
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Not to mention that we don't see too many slothful SEAL's here hanging around the Dunkin Donuts..

To say that hiring and retention standards in LEO positions is, err... "highly variable" is accurate. To say that selection and retention standards in the Navy is highly standardized and rigorous is also accurate. There's no comparison possible between the two. I've never seen a fat or poorly educated or just plain angry or lazy or incompetent or overtly hostile SEAL (Bearing in mind that I work with them professionally).

LEO's? Uhh.... don't get me started. We've all seen it.


Smile guys...



Willie

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Old April 1, 2012, 07:57 PM   #50
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I belong to several forums and these type of topics come up all the time.I don't understand all these traffic stop stories.I have been driving for 46 years and have been stopped twice last time 40 years ago.I have to make a guess that many people who belong to gun forums drive like complete idiots?Or maybe they are just keyboard Ninjas?
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