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Old March 29, 2012, 12:50 PM   #26
Emuricah513
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I believe they could be necessary at some point in time yes and I can't see why a private citizen shouldn't be allowed to have one. Having armed citizens is a definite advantage especially when some unmentioned person wants his own private military as well equipped and trained as our U.S. military..not to sound like some crazy conspiracy theorist but you never know honestly..
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Old April 6, 2012, 04:17 PM   #27
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I believe that it is my responsibility, as a US citizen, to be proficient in the operation and maintenance of a range of current US military personal arms. 250 years ago, this would have meant black powder weapons and perhaps a sword. Today, it means the anything from the M16A2, M-4 carbine, M-1014 shotgun, M-9 pistol, etc.

Owning weapons such as these makes living up to my Constitutional responsibility possible. Should the need arise for me to defend my home, my neighborhood, hometown, state or country, individual weapons training should not be necessary. Of course, I'll gladly accept ammo and spares on the taxpayers' dime.
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Old April 7, 2012, 11:34 AM   #28
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lol. I always love it when I hear people yapping about how their dinky little small-arms are the last resort against tyranny. It's so cute and quaint, like the guy in the tri-corn hat with a "Keep your Government hands off my Medicare" sign at a Tea-Party rally.

Basically what they're advocating is an nascent ability for an insurgency against the evil guv'ment. Somehow they think that the said evil guv'ment didn't learn anything about counter-insurgency during our debacles in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Apparently their AR-15s, AKs, Glocks, Sigs and what not are going to more succcesful in beating back the evil guv'ment than the IEDs, VBIEDs, RPGs, DShKs and other serious military hardware we dealt with in Iraq and continue to deal with in Afghanistan.

Somehow when the evil jack-booted thugs come to kick in your door, take your guns and lead you off to a FEMA-Death-Camp, they expect to be succesful against the MRAPs, UAVs, helicopters, Tanks, heavy weaponry and such of the American Military (as surely the evil Guv'ment will not be bound by Posse Comitatus and the full-bear of our military will be unleashed, upon the citizenry, by the son's and daughters of said citizenry. Wait, what? ).

In other words, you don't stand a chance of forcible resistance against for the US government if were to become the evil guv'ment of some people's fears. Sorry buddy, I'd refer you to several Islamist jack-asses who know about the futility of resistance (in a tactical sense), I met in Iraq, but tragically they're not around to talk about it. This is especially true here in the US, where we're not trying to project our power somewhere else, on to a different culture (such as Iraq or Afghanistan), where the insurgency knows we're going home after a while. You're not going to outlast the Guv'ment's superior firepower, when you're in their backyard.

I know it's not nearly as sexy as stock-piling weapons and proclaiming "from my cold dead hands", but if you really want to guarantee your liberty, I'd look to the rule of law and keeping our government open and accountable to preserve our liberties. Yes, in the 1700's armed resistance was a viable means of protecting liberty, but that's no longer true in the modern era.
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Old April 7, 2012, 11:44 AM   #29
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^^^^^ beretta lol. I share your sentiment. I'm of the opinion that 50 of the best NFA firearms won do much against an APACHE.
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Old April 7, 2012, 11:46 AM   #30
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Ntm "machine guns" are worthless without the military training to support them.
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Old April 7, 2012, 05:37 PM   #31
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Beretta, did they learn how to operate with no secure rear training and supply facilities? Huge portions of our military bases are within rifle range of civilian neighborhoods. Most base personnel now live off base. besides, if you didn't notice we haven't exactly "won" in either Iraq or Afghanistan. Far from it. All we really accomplished was destroying the infrastructure in Iraq and pretending to raise the price of Heroin for a few years. Taliban is now becoming one of our key allies in Afghanistan.
Not that FA plays into that argument much at all. FA just isn't very useful for insurgents. You have to have supply like the US military to use full auto in a military situation. Imagine the craziest, err uhhh, most prepared person you know who has 20,000 rounds of 223 stashed away. How long does that last if distributed to a platoon in actual combat?

50 full auto items might force the deployment of an attack helicopter. Once you start deploying attack helicopters you find yourself in a bad political position. Of course THAT lesson does seem to have been missed.

Look at the financial expense, human resources cost, and image costs of things like Waco. Sure you can roll over the place with tanks and save a little money, but that isn't going to go over any better in the news.

There was a time when it was thought an insurgency without heavy cavalry(Knights) was impossible.

Most people who think limiting the sale of full autos is such a great idea don't realize that most any amateur machinist can convert a gun to FA and making a full auto SMG with a smooth barrel from plumbing supplies is not a challenge for a handyman with a ten page booklet of instructions.

Anyways, the 22LR suggestion was not to limit it to that in the long term, but rather to make an incremental step. From there pushing other rimfires is a simple thing after a few years. Then maybe other 22s, etc. In the meantime the registry is vastly expanded eliminating the primary "legitimate" legal argument against machine guns. The only way I see any progress being made on this front without a few thousand people putting themselves in legal jeopardy.
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Old April 7, 2012, 06:21 PM   #32
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Quote:
Beretta, did they learn how to operate with no secure rear training and supply facilities? Huge portions of our military bases are within rifle range of civilian neighborhoods. Most base personnel now live off base.
lol, so in other words, you're going to ambush me and other soldiers on the way to work? Nice.

Quote:
besides, if you didn't notice we haven't exactly "won" in either Iraq or Afghanistan. Far from it. All we really accomplished was destroying the infrastructure in Iraq and pretending to raise the price of Heroin for a few years. Taliban is now becoming one of our key allies in Afghanistan.
Let's call a spade a spade. We suffered (and are going to suffer) a strategic defeat in both conflicts, even though we tactically win most everytime. But that's only because we were playing in someone else's backyard. If the supposed evil guv'ment takes over, they're doing it on their home-tuff and time is on their side, unlike in Iraq or Afghanistan.

But because I'm bored let's see how your American insurgency will play out:
Firstly you'll need to organize via some form of electronic communication, which will be easily intercepted and compromised. The evil guv'ment will utilize both ground and aerial assets to do Signals Intelligence and monitor all communications of the insurgency, just as we did in Iraq (but with the advantage of analysts being native speakers, able to immediately analyze raw data). When they find a cell-phone, they'll dump the data off it and find out who called who, to gain an understanding of the network opposing it. This will glean actionable intelligence which the evil guv'ment will use to launch raids against those opposing it.

Suppose you want to ambush the evil guv'ment on the way to raid your insurgent place. Enroute they'll use aerial assets from UAVs to helicopters to do a route reconnaissance. It'll happen at night, as that's where their tactical advantage is. Your ambush be easily spotted as you can't hide from a FLIR very well. At that point, they'll either destroy your ambush in-place with other assets (say the Apache which can engage targets well beyond the max effective range of a .50), route around it or choose to do a counter-ambush, either by directly assualting your ambush or waiting for you to leave & getting you enroute. Either way, you're toast. Or maybe they'll just assign a UAV to watch were you head off to and raid you later.

Once they're at your insurgent place, depending on the Rules Of Engagemet, they may initiate the raid with suppressive fire from a variety of belt-fed weapon systems (or just blow it up with a 120mm HEAT round or Mk19 40mm automatic grenade launcher) before the assualt element moves in. Or they may do a "tactical callout" and allow you the chance to surrender.

Should you choose not to surrender, the assault element of decisive size (at least a 3-to-1 ratio) will move in, under cover of suppressive-fire and possibly smoke too. Once in the building, they'll methodically move room-to-room clearing & searching the building and engaging targets as required. Should you barricade yourself in a room, there is a wide-variety of weapons dig you out from fragmentation grenades, flash-bangs to CS gas. But at the end of the day you die.

But if for some reason some elements of your insurgency survive, they still need logistical support & training. In Iraq they had Syria and Iran to provide them training & logistical support once their on-hand supplies of were exhausted. In Afghanistan the Taliban has the Pakistani Tribal Areas as sanctuaries and training/logistical support areas. In the US, I doubt Mexico and Canada are going to provide your insurgency much support, much less sanctuary.

So you're basically stuck with whatever caches have already been established. They'll be a time where ammo is plenty, but soon that will be exhausted, as fire-fights consume quite a bit of ammo. Also, the evil guv'ment will be using all it's available assets to secure these caches, and trust me, they're pretty good at it.

Basically your insurgency will be unable to safely communicate and gain strenght in numbers. They'll have limited supplies of ammo and unable to get meaningful resupplies. And they'll quickly be killed off by a trained professional military adept at the tactics of counter-insurgency.

So in other words, the idea of meaningful armed resistance against the evil guv'ment is futile and is best reserved for internet forums, where ideas can run wild and free without reality creeping in.

For some strange reason people seem to view their guns in this strange quasi-religious sense, instead of as merely enjoyable tools. It's as though these inanimate pieces of steel are somehow the ultimate guaranteers of liberty, rather than the rule-of-law and people playing by a common set of rules.
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Old April 7, 2012, 10:56 PM   #33
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And by the tim e what you outlined is over, how many non-combatants are dead? This time US citizens instead of people who's names we couldn't remember if we wanted to b/c we can't pronounce them.

Quote:
a strategic defeat in both conflicts
You see that, but not the big picture? Insurgencies are long drawn out things that almost always rely on bankrupting the government.

I didn't say I would be organizing anything. I didn't say I would be ambushing anyone "on their way to work." One thing people seem to miss in these discussions is our government is quite fluid. If this all came to pass and I was put in the place of picking a side it would likely rely heavily on the results of the previous election cycle. Previous to a rebellion politics would have to be EXTREMELY polarized even in comparison to what we see today. The parties would look nothing like they do now.
The reality of the government situation is simple though. I live next to a very large base. Almost all of the officers live off base. There really isn't permanent housing on base to even hold them in the long term, and certainly not their families. At one time there was but at this point it is all replaced with labs. It would likely be possible to convert several neighborhoods close to the base, cordon them off and try to beef up security, but even that would cause immense problems and still leave vulnerabilities. When things get ugly they get dirty. Did you think people would call each other out and duel at ten paces with distinguished honor?
Being home turf is no advantage at all. It is a logistical and psychological nightmare, especially once desertion kicks in and given the tactics the US currently deploys, which are VERY dependent on a secure supply chain. Try PTSD when there is no rotation out of country and you are killing people who cry out in your native language. US military has huge problems now with diversion of material stores for profit, wait until that mixes with ideology. I can't think of a single insurgency in world history where the insurgents had close to the military power of the government they opposed. They don't need it. They just need to hang on and keep embarrassing the government maintaining an environment of insecurity..


All pretty much irrelevant though. As noted, no insurgent is going to have sufficient supply to take advantage of full auto all that much and if it comes to that converting semi auto weapons to full or just making new full autos will be much simpler than anyone making the laws seems to realize. Criminals certainly do it with little trouble whatsoever.
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Old April 8, 2012, 12:03 AM   #34
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And Beretta is assuming the military will go along with any scheme the guv'ment, as he calls it, comes up with. I served over 24 years with active, National Guard, and Reserve components, and I can pretty comfortably say that few, if any, military personnel will act militarily against segments of the US population.
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Old April 8, 2012, 09:24 AM   #35
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Quote:
If the supposed evil guv'ment takes over, they're doing it on their home-tuff and time is on their side, unlike in Iraq or Afghanistan.
While it would be quite unlike Iraq or Afghanistan, I believe you are making the wrong assumption about the "ebil guvmint" having time. Unlike the rest of the world, we, as a people have held the idea for a long time that govt serves at our pleasure. We expect elections, and all our constitutionally guaranteed rights.

Any "evil guv'mint" actually oppressing our liberties by force of arms is going to be on borrowed time. The longer it goes on, the more resistance there will be. IN all kinds of ways, not just resitance by force.

While clearly, the same military tactics (overwhelming firepower, tanks, jets, etc.) will work in combat, doing that, particularly on a prolonged basis, and over a wide area in the US will NOT go the same way it does in third world pestholes.

Muslim terrorists have a very, very, very narrow window of sympathy in our military. Hundreds of thousands of troops, and you maybe find one, or two willing to give information to the "rebels" or toss a grenade into a tent.

Active combat ops, against the general US population? Don't make me laugh. Our troops are OUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS! While you will have a certain number of people willing to just follow ANY order, until you create special units made only of people like that, your combat efficiency is going to be waaayy down. And, when you DO make units of "loyal" troops, you are going to find them to be the "enemy" to not just the US population, but a significant portion of the rest of the military.

No, FA arms in civilian hands don't equalize against tanks and airpower, but tanks and airpower can only destroy things, not control or administer. That can only be done by individuals on the ground. And that is where the "evil guvmint" will fail, ultimately.

Why deny us something that is both a constituional right, and in your view irrelevant anyway? IF civilian ownership of FA arms won't save us from the "evil guvmint" why would that same guv'mint be worried about it?

I think your argument is flawed, you haven't thought things through enough.
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Old April 9, 2012, 05:57 AM   #36
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So what I get out of this is Beretta and the military(according to him) will go against their sworn oaths to up hold the Constition of the United States of America first and formost and chose to obey the unlawful orders. Well I for one will hold to my SWORN of to uphold the Constition first and formost and I think the majorty of the U.S. miltary will chose to. So I see most of the tanks, aircraft, supplies, and weapons being in the hands of the "rebels"!
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Old April 9, 2012, 07:23 AM   #37
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lol. Ya'll have spectaculalry missed my point that Red Dawn fantasies of forcibly resisting a supposed evil guv'ment with your dinky small-arms, are just that: a fantasy.

The idea that privately owned weapons are a last resort against an evil tyrannical guv'ment is absurd (which is the point of my describing what an American insurgent would look like), when said evil guv'ment can bring the full weight and bear of modern warfare against it's enemies.

Back to as I said before, it must be sexy to imagine yourself as a 21st century Minute Man with your little AR-15, ready to resist the black-helicopters and such at a moment's notice. But any armed efforts you do would be futile and easily crushed by a truly tyrannical regime.

Therefore if you really want to preserve your liberty, try rule-of-law, an educated populace, critical thinking and such, not stockpiling weapons and key-board jockying about your plan to fight off the evil guv'ment with your drinking buddies.

It's a bit like nation-building, where everyone loves lofty platitudes of knocking off dictators, bringing freedom to oppressed masses and fancy talk. But really running a country is figuring out where the sewage will go, bringing in power, disposing trash and creating a civil society.
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Old April 9, 2012, 08:10 AM   #38
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And where is that regime getting the forces in the U.S.?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beretta686 View Post
lol, so in other words, you're going to ambush me and other soldiers on the way to work? Nice.
There is you're answer. And if you are fighting on the side of a tyrannical gooberment what would you expect someone to do let you get to work? I don't get it?

And I guess there have NEVER been any successful rebellions where a ill-equipped population have over thrown a military power house huh?

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Old April 9, 2012, 08:38 AM   #39
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The UK does not lag behind us by that much and things like attack helicopters were available in the 80's, although they now have some more toys attached. The IRA kept going without much problem until the political situation lead to loss of support. US is using much more aggressive tactics in Iraq and Afghanistan than they could in continental US with other large advantages, such as having secure supply, and US isn't winning. I don't see how an insurgency in the US could possibly be easier.

We tried Afghanistan with "no troops" on the ground if you remember. It didn't work at all. At the end of the day someone has to WALK down the street in plain view of every window if you want to control an area.

I think the majority of soldiers would go along with the government. Look at units that are involved in war crimes. One or two push the whole unit to do it. There are instances in recent history where US soldiers executed unconstitutional orders. There is a very strong case that deploying to Iraq or Afghanistan is unconstitutional as war was not constitutionally declared. No one cares.
Some would defect though. Some would sabotage & spy. Some would just stop working hard. The military engine would be knocking hard.

I think most people fail to realize how few people it takes to affect a revolution. About 5% of the population will push things to the point where everyone has to choose a side and at that point most revolutions eventually win or at least reform the government to the extent that they are an indirect success.

People said exactly what Beretta is saying when the colonies went to war, when the French Peasant rose, When the Russian Serfs Rose, etc. Heck I have an acquaintance who was involved in Romania not so long ago and most said the same about them defeating the Soviets(who had plenty of Hinds, RPG, mortars, MG, artillery, ICBMS, ruthless special forces and secret police, etc.)

What happens to the US economy if you set off a single fairly large sized car bomb HERE? And that isn't even a GREAT infrastructure target. This is what an insurgency in the US would look like. People thought Jesse Ventura was off his rocker when he said he and a few SEAL friends could drop the US to its knees, but that was because they live in a delusional world where beef magically shows up at their grocery store without an animal having been harmed.
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Old April 9, 2012, 08:49 AM   #40
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Afghanistan took everything the Russians could throw at them and gave in gave it right back. They had surface to air missiles and anti armor weapons that we supplied them, but so would the "rebels". Supply lines and depots are soft targets you cant wast you armor, and aircraft to protect everything.


5% also would out number the military by at least 5 to 1. I have been in for 12 years I think you would see the majority the military defenant;y the guard and reserve units oppose the tyranny(fight for home).

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Old April 9, 2012, 06:37 PM   #41
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I sincerely admire ya'll's gung-ho attitude towards defending America and you bring up very valid examples from history of successful insurgencies.

Yet you're failing to understand how technology has forever and unalterably changed the Battlefield. You're like the WWI Cavalry guys charging head-long into machine-guns, failing to grasp technology has left you behind. Or the Naval theorists who laughed at Billy Mitchell before he sunk their ships with his airplanes.

Nowadays you can immediately locate the origin of a single gun-shot and get eyes-on very quickly from a variety of assets. Biometric data (finger-prints, iris scans, etc) is easily gathered and used to build databases of people which computers will ceaselessly sort through mining for patterns and data. Phones can be automatically monitored for key words or voice patterns. Cameras use facial recognition software to ID people & track without any active involvement by humans.

You'd be shocked what can be done with one little clue. From a marginal fingerprint off the fragment of an IED, the data dumping of a few cell phones to see who calls who, gathering biometric data at a checkpoint and so much more.

Fighting a bunch of stone-aged barbarian insurgents in Afghanistan is very different than a modern society such as the US, which is heavily dependent on technology. Sure some people will go "off the grid" but they're inherently marginalized and "the grid" will soon find them.

You seem to think we're in The Longest Day where you're the French Resistance forcibly resisting tyranny, blowing up Nazi trains, shooting enemy soldiers and such.

But really we're in The Wild Bunch. You're the rest of the gang thinking you can keep doing what's always worked, ignoring the automobile, the machine-gun, the airplane and other ways the world's changed to make your type (the armed resistance fighter) obsolete. But like Pike Bishop said "We've got to start thinking beyond our guns. Those days are closing fast".

And indeed the era that your dinky small-arms are going to defeat a modern government are dwindling away, just as the formerly so decisive & impressive Cavalry charge did.
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Old April 9, 2012, 07:01 PM   #42
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I have a buddy who raises homing pigeons with a 300 mile range. He uses them for weddings and racing, but it isn't like they have a union contract excluding messaging. The US military currently has no trained falconer program. I am unsubscribing and if you would like to continue this conversation I will locate another venue as I think this is against rules and I am always in trouble here.

Maybe one that is encrypted. Not unbreakable encryption, but sure takes up a lot of resources to break it.
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Old April 9, 2012, 08:08 PM   #43
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I personally don't need a machine gun.

That said, I view any reduction of my machine gun ownership rights to be a vile attack on my basic human rights, civil rights and in violation of the actual wording of the 2nd amendment.

There is no question in my mind that the NFA and GOPA are both vile documents which were written by communists. This is why we need to get the power of our lawmakers back in our hands.
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Old April 9, 2012, 10:08 PM   #44
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While it may seem like a futile pipe dream in the face of oh so awesome technology, there are a couple of other points that must be considered. Yes, we are a technological nation. But all the geeks and uber geeks don't (and won't) work for the evil guv'mint. AND, we will have friends on the inside.

You seem to think we want our guns for open battle. If it comes to that, I suppose they'd be nice to have, if they are going to take us out anyway, why not try to take a side party?

Which is why they try so hard to ensure we are disarmed. Cheaper in the long run, you know.

Again I ask, if personal arms (and machine guns are the most effective arms for combat, when used correctly) are so irrelevant, why are they trying so hard to make them so unobtainable?

Irrevelant? Seems like a lot of folks don't share that opinion. Certainly, if those in government don't think they are irrelvant (could never win?) we should do the same.

The truly irritating thing is that for 52 YEARS people willing to go through the process and pay the fees were allowed to own new machineguns, and older guns that had not previously been registered were allowed to be added also. Without criminal penalty, without extra cost, just fill out the forms, get the approvals, and pay the taxes.

And in all that time the number of crimes commited with all those guns, by their owners (stolen doesn't get to count) is what, 2? And one of those was done by a serving police officer!

So, what is our "reward" but a complete denial of any new guns allowed to be added to the registery. No new made guns. No heirloom pieces discovered as inheritance. NO historical artifacts discovered or recovered from their resting places...simply nothing not already on the registery as of May 19th 1986 allowed for civilian ownership. Period.

No, I don't think that everyone should have a machine gun. Nor should everyone have a gun. Nor should everyone drive a car, be unsupervised with matches, or sharp objects. We have a huge number of irresponsible people, and a fair amount of outright mental defectives among us. I think a record of virtual ZERO for over half a century prooves the existing vetting process is adequate, if not actually more than needed. SO WHY cut us off? And the cutting us off from new guns ensures that eventually if shot, the existing guns will wear out. Thus ending the "problem" of legal civilian ownership. And until then, the simple market economics of fixed supply and any demand ensures the price rapidly goes beyond the reach of all but affluent citizens.

And, as a group, the wealthy don't commit many violent crimes, anyway....

Meanwhile, machineguns play a HUGE part in our entertainment industry, and hardcore criminals who want them get them anyway....

Just doesn't seem very fair to me.
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Old April 10, 2012, 07:34 AM   #45
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Good questions here and lots of good answers, mostly true.

Tanks can be privately owned in Great Britain, too, though not machine guns. There are lots of things I'd like to have, even to include a few firearms, that I cannot afford. Some things are illegal and some are simply unavailable (except on eBay). But as far as firearms go, I could do without any. I own only two now and mostly I "do" without them. I'm much too old to fulfill the purpose of the 2nd Amendment. So mostly there's no point.

The argument that criminals get whatever they want, therefore commodity X should not be illegal doesn't hold much water. I agree that there are too many things illegal (prisons are a growth industry) but having nothing illegal is not going to happen. You may not like the "guv-mint" but I'm sure I will like yours even less.
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Old April 10, 2012, 11:29 AM   #46
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It's the Bill of Rights not Bill of Neccesities

What does it mean to live in a free country?
Is there real meaning behind the cliché "It's a free country isn't it"?

Lots of people engage in activities that have no apparent necessity; Sky diving, stamp collecting, auto racing, bird watching etc.

In a free country we don't have to prove "Necessity" in order to pursue our own particular brand of happiness.

I have always believed that in a "Free Country" one person's rights end only where they begin to infringe upon another's.

The burden of proof (IMHO) is on the person that thinks private ownership of machine guns is unnecessary and should be abolished. That person needs to make the case that private ownership of class three weapons somehow infringes on the rights of others (IMHO there is no case). Necessity is an irrelevant argument.

Quote:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
The 2nd amendment is to ensure that the people have the means and ability to defend their selves when their government is un-willing or unable.

Quote:
You take from me my life, when you do take from me the means by which I live
- W. S. The quote is metaphorical. Does a right exist with out the means to ensure that right?

The "Necessity" of the 2nd amendment is as a protector of all other rights. It should be limited only where it becomes an infringement upon the rights of others. The necessity was accepted as natural law by our founding fathers. Necessity is not the argument. If you wanted it limited, the burden is on you to show where it's boundaries are and where it infringes on the rights of others.

What right, what freedom is denied to you by the lawful private ownership of class 3 weapons? Speak Up. What has been taken from you by the lawful ownership of machine guns?
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Last edited by Archer 9505; April 10, 2012 at 12:56 PM.
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Old April 11, 2012, 06:48 AM   #47
BlueTrain
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Location: Northern Virginia
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Funny. I always thought the purpose of the militia was, among other things, to put down insurrections. That's what it used to be used for. You know, tax resisters and union strikers.

Maybe we ought to make people take an oath to support the United States. We could call it, oh, a pledge of something or other.
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Old April 11, 2012, 08:42 AM   #48
jimbob86
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Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
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Machine Guns are largely a moot point....

Quote:
Funny. I always thought the purpose of the militia was, among other things, to put down insurrections. That's what it used to be used for. You know, tax resisters and union strikers.
We have a hundred+ Federal Acronym Agencies for that now, Blue......

Militias were always a local thing ..... until the National Guard was formed, and the Feds took control of that, at least financially.....

Private citizens really don't, as a rule, have the money to feed an automatic weapon to the point of being proficient with it, IMO ..... not when 50% of them are on the dole, and the rest are forking over 1/3 to 1/2 of their income to pay for that Welfare State and all those Federal Agencies.

I am having a difficult enough time remaining proficient with the guns I have and none of them will burn a box of ammo in 3-5 seconds ..... maybe we need a Federal Ammunition Subsidy Program..... NOT.
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Old April 11, 2012, 10:22 AM   #49
David Hineline
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Join Date: December 23, 1999
Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska
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Here is your chance to check your proficiency without having to buy a gun as they will be available for use.

http://myweb.cableone.net/uziforme/NESubun.docx
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Old April 11, 2012, 10:39 AM   #50
BlueTrain
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Location: Northern Virginia
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I don't pay anywhere near 50% in taxes and I doubt anyone you know does. Now, the national guard is really the equivalent of the organized and well regulated militia of today. It may not be properly used, meaning the federal government is relying too much on it, taking it out of the control of the state. I realize the intent was, when it was decided to rely more on the national guard and the reserve, to make sure the citizens actually approved of whatever war it was going to be used in. Not sure if it worked out that way or not. But in the meantime, the governor doesn't have a military body to call upon for whenever they're needed.

I assume you've all served in the national guard.
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