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Old March 26, 2012, 11:23 PM   #1
Rob62
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14" barrel shotgun that isn't NFA - i.e. no tax stamp required ??

Any thoughts on the legality of this ? (14" barrel Mossberg shotgun)

http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88

I don't see how this can be legal in any way - I have read all the BATFE letters on the linked site, and still can't see any way this would be OK to own without a tax stamp (BATFE Form 4 or Form 1 if you make it yourself)

Seems like the key words that are being relied on for this to be a non tax stamp item are "capable of being concealed on the person". And that is such a fluid term that different people can easily interpret that in different ways.

Regards,

Rob
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Last edited by Rob62; March 26, 2012 at 11:36 PM.
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Old March 27, 2012, 01:23 AM   #2
kozak6
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It makes me nervous. Technically, he seems to be correct. For now. Have a look at Len Savage's letters. But I'm not brave enough to own such a shotgun.

I agree with the point that "capable of being concealed on a person" is readily reinterpreted. Chances are, if the BATFE caught someone with such a shotgun, that's exactly what they would do.

It would be very easy for a prosecuting attorney to demonstrate tucking such a shotgun into a jacket in front of a judge in order to demonstrate that such a shotgun is "capable of being concealed".
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Old March 27, 2012, 06:23 AM   #3
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Looks borderline at best, and I would imagine it would take quite alot of talking to stay out of the back of a crusier of you get caught out and about with that one....... Just sayin.....
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Old March 27, 2012, 04:36 PM   #4
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it would take quite alot of talking to stay out of the back of a crusier of you get caught out and about with that one
You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.
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Old March 27, 2012, 05:52 PM   #5
Skans
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If they could only make it in semi-auto with a 20 round drum!
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Old March 27, 2012, 06:28 PM   #6
Willie Sutton
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Seems easy enough... get him to submit the same S/N that you want to buy to the BATF for a classification and carry the letter with you. THEN read the state statutes for every state you want to posess it in. Good luck on the latter... and state prisons are far less nice places than club fed.

Willie

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Old March 27, 2012, 10:28 PM   #7
Pvt. Pyle
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This doesnt seem illegal at all. It is under the same provisions as an AR15 style pistol.

the capable of being concealed is the ATFs definition of AOW(Any other Weapon), which is a weapon that can be concealed, under 26 inches. This weapon is over 26 inches, not being concealable. Also not being considered a shotgun but a Pistol Grip Only Firearm, seems like a fun range gun, and sounds like a pretty good home defense gun.

With no cruiser rides involved.
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Old March 28, 2012, 01:33 AM   #8
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Ain't a lawyer, but I always thought that all guns with barrels over 0.50 inches were automatically a Destructive Device with shotguns being let through with the "sporting purpose" exemption, and that to be considered a sporting gun it had to adhere to the minimum barrel & overall length rules. That's the reason that you see 410 revolvers, 28 and up are over the half inch.

Not going to lie, if this does bear fruit, I may have to add one of these guns to my "guns that I want even though they are useless". I blame holywood.
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Old March 28, 2012, 02:55 AM   #9
gyvel
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Sounds like more "dancing in the mine field" if you ask me.
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Old March 28, 2012, 04:26 AM   #10
Willie Lowman
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I don't have the time to look in the ORC but I don't think that crap would fly in Ohio.

I already have some 14" shotguns. I'll take a good old fashioned tax stamp over some wacky loop hole that the ATF can amend with another letter any day!
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Old March 28, 2012, 02:36 PM   #11
medalguy
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Rifled barrels over .5 inches are DDs. This is simply made as a smoothbore pistol, no problems as long as it has never had a buttstock attached and it was not originally manufactured as a shotgun.

This is all federal law. State law may well vary.
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Old March 28, 2012, 04:29 PM   #12
mooman
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H&R Habdygun

I have a H&R handygun its on a 5 dollar any other weapon tax stamp. It was made with a pistol grip and has a smooth bore, if it was made with stock then converted to a pistol grip it would have been subject to a 200 dollar tax stamp. I cant see how this is not an NFA weapon subject to a 5 dollar tax stamp. I also have a Thompson Contender chambered in 45 long colt and .410 its not an NFA weapon because it has a rifled barrel.
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Old March 28, 2012, 04:59 PM   #13
Rob62
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Thanks for the comments. After reading and re-reading the info at the linked site - of which two of the letters I can't view - I think I understand what the "loophole" is.

My point is that from my purely non BATFE educated mind this is something that will most likely get the owner into a lot of trouble.

Regards,
Rob
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Old March 28, 2012, 05:08 PM   #14
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It falls under the AOW rule. It may be legal with a tax stamp but certainly illegal without one.
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Old March 28, 2012, 06:03 PM   #15
Bill DeShivs
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No, it's not illegal, and it doesn't require a tax stamp.
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Old March 28, 2012, 08:28 PM   #16
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Old March 28, 2012, 09:18 PM   #17
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I don't need one bad enough to take a chance that Andy, Barney, Kojak or Serpico don't know the finer points of BATFE regulations, resulting in my eating pavement. Not interested.
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Old March 28, 2012, 09:22 PM   #18
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Not illegal at all, same as an AR pistol. There is no gray area here
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Old March 28, 2012, 09:26 PM   #19
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I Say Go ahead! I want to see what kind of example they make out of you!
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Old March 29, 2012, 01:49 AM   #20
kozak6
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Rifled barrels over .5 inches are DDs. This is simply made as a smoothbore pistol, no problems as long as it has never had a buttstock attached and it was not originally manufactured as a shotgun.
Not quite. Smoothbore pistols are AOW's. This is different.

Quote:
Not illegal at all, same as an AR pistol. There is no gray area here
Absolutely not. Read Len Savage's letters.

The idea is this:

Factory pistol grip only shotguns aren't actually shotguns according to the 1934 NFA since they aren't shoulder fired. So, shortening the barrel can't possibly result in an SBS unless you install a stock first.

An AOW is defined in part as "capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell".

Note that there is no restriction on barrel length.

So, then, at what point would shortening the barrel of a factory PGO shotgun result in it being considered capable of being concealed? In the letters above, the BATFE says capable of being concealed usually means an overall length of less than 26", but that such a firearm over 26" could also be declared an AOW if there was evidence of it being concealed.

The point is that this is a completely arbitrary point to make, and that they could reasonably change their mind at any time. And if they do, you are talking a fine up to $10,000 and up to a 10 year sentence. And that's just federal charges. There are still state charges on top of that.

The 14" barrel is pretty cool, but I don't know if it's that cool.
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Old March 29, 2012, 04:25 AM   #21
Willie Lowman
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O R C 1923.11 F

“Sawed-off firearm” means a shotgun with a barrel less than eighteen inches long, or a rifle with a barrel less than sixteen inches long, or a shotgun or rifle less than twenty-six inches long overall.

Yep. Illegal in Ohio. I'll stick to my $200 stamps thankyouverymuch.
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Old March 29, 2012, 08:01 AM   #22
Captains1911
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Quote:
“Sawed-off firearm” means a shotgun with a barrel less than eighteen inches long, or a rifle with a barrel less than sixteen inches long, or a shotgun or rifle less than twenty-six inches long overall.

Yep. Illegal in Ohio. I'll stick to my $200 stamps thankyouverymuch.
You are assuming that it's still considered a "shotgun" with no stock. Are AR pistols illegal in OH? Nope, they are not, and they can have a barrel lengths less than 16".
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Old March 29, 2012, 10:20 AM   #23
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Tap dancing in the mine field is right I think. While technically correct that it doesn't match description of SBS or AOW, I don't have the funds to defend it in court or cover the expense of being out of work.

Last edited by RyeDaddy; March 29, 2012 at 11:31 AM.
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