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Old April 2, 2012, 02:02 PM   #51
scottycoyote
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i carry my guns with a jhp chambered, and the first bullet a fmj--my thinking being if a pistol is going to have a fte/ftf it would more likely happen with a jhp snagging the ramp, so i feel fairly certain i have 2 good shots. The rest of my bullets in the clip are jhp's
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Old April 2, 2012, 10:26 PM   #52
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Test your gun with a quality SD HP round and load up the entire mag and chamber with the same round. Loading alternate bullets makes no sense and every other shot will have a nice ice pick effect in the lighter faster calibers like 9mm. Your not going to be able to count what round is next in a high stress situation with adrenaline pumping and tunnel vision in full effect. Carrying an extra magazine of FMJ is okay, if you think a SD situation may turn into a Hollywood movie with both sides shooting behind cover for a length of time, then all it would take is a simple mag change.

Some rounds are more acceptable in FMJ like .380 and 45acp for example since they are slower moving rounds. If you have one gun that only feeds FMJ or is iffy with any HP round, load the first round with HP and the rest of the mag with FMJ. Then in the mean time, find a gun that works with SD ammo since it's not rare to find one that does.

BTW, I'm not including caliber examples to start a caliber war so please do not quote any phrases out of context. This is about staggering FMJ/HP ammo in a singe magazine.
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Old April 3, 2012, 01:14 AM   #53
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********Testing confirmed that in most instances the lighter Hollow Point (HP) projectiles (.380, 9mm, .40 cal.) open prematurely or do not open at all, the HP cup filling with target medium, turning itself into lighter ball ammo, or the HP projectile takes a different path from the flight path upon entering the target medium, resulting in non lethal hits or lesser wounds than intended due to deflection of the projectile from the unstable HP cup reacting to hydrostatic pressure from impact with the target medium (veering off course, so to speak).(2)

********Heavier Ball ammo (any round of 200gr weight or greater) such as .45ACP 230 gr., .44 Special 246 gr., .45 LC 255 gr., .38 Special 200 gr. LRN,(3) all followed the intended flight path, even upon hitting bone. These projectiles gave the best observed handgun performance in creating damage that would be consistent with producing incapacitation of a human target with the fewest possible shots fired. They also did not exit the cadaver torso as the energy was invariably shed in the target, leaving no apparent energy for over-penetration and exit(4). Exit wounds did occur with face shots, head shots and extremities, face shots causing imparting of secondary velocity to teeth and chunks of bone, creating secondary fragment projectiles.

********In terminal ballistics, all HP's of the same approximate weight and approximate velocity are equal in performance. Velocities in handguns are essentially insufficient to provide predictable opening when necessary or desired in human targets. The most effective HP's in .45ACP are those that retain the original weight of 230 gr. as they will continue to function as well as ball ammo, whether they open or not.

********Testing was also done on a comparison of handgun ammunition between hard cast lead, swaged lead and semi-jacketed soft point to FMJ. Testing was only done to examine the types of wounds produced, not for armor protection as none of those projectiles in handgun loads, including .44 Magnum and .454 Casull can penetrate level IIA or III body armor. Hard alloy lead (like linotype metal) performed somewhat like FMJ and bored straight through. To be exact, #2 Lyman chilled 230 gr. .45's were tested on cadavers and they duplicated FMJ results. Softer lead gave surprising results(5), in that it deformed on impact but pushed ahead through bone and flesh and shed its velocity and energy quicker, stopping 3 to 5 cm earlier than FMJ. In other words, it produced a MORE violent stopping effect than harder leads. This result also duplicates the Army findings from the 1904 tests. It is problematic for modern law enforcement use, however, as soft lead does not feed reliably in semi-automatic pistols. It's use is outstanding, however, in revolvers as there is no feed travel problem.

From: http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/pigboard.html#b2

If you read all that, also, the geneva convention has NOTHING to do with the type of round the military uses. Its the Hague convention, which incidentally, the USA never signed nor was a part of.

And, with the rounds feeding off each other... Would the cases be in contact, even when tipping...the case would be in contact with ogive...since cases are the same...and they both feed reliably unstaggered...wouldn't they both feed together?
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Old April 3, 2012, 05:31 PM   #54
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distance, CC shootings, ammunition selection....

I disagree with a few points here.
1) Factory made JHPs are far better than standard or milspec FMJ rounds. The fact that many people are killed in combat with FMJ type ammunition is moot.
Ammunition or volume of fire with small arms(pistols, rifles, sniper rifles, machine guns, etc) was not an issue in full combat. Private citizens like armed professionals must account for EVERY round fired in a critical incident.
2) Distance is a factor for armed citizen use of force incidents. I agree that most incidents with CC or armed citizens are 0 to 3 feet BUT you might need to fire at a armed subject from long ranges too. They are rare but can occur.
One well known lethal force incident took place in WA state where a USAF SP(security police now called Security Forces) shot his issue M9 duty pistol at a spree shooter armed with a AK-47. The young SP arrived on the scene in a hospital parking lot & engaged the violent subject. He was able to fire a 9mmNATO round at a documented range of approx 89 yards.
3) I always advise gun owners or concealed license holders to only use factory rounds not reloads or hand-loaded rounds for duty or defense uses.
It's better in court or a after action criminal investigation/ME inquest if you can show you used the same type of handgun rounds sworn LE or federal agencies used. As widely known, most jury members, media reporters or lawyers are not; "gunners" or fully understand firearms/ballistics.

I could go on about this subject but will close by saying a responsible gun owner or license holder would use common sense & good judgement.
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Old April 4, 2012, 12:17 AM   #55
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I don't see why anyone would need to shoot at someone at long distances in SELF DEFENSE. The LEO shooting at 89m was not defending himself, he was taking down a perp. At 89m you have too good a chance to get away to try and justify to a jury of why you had to take that shot.
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Old April 4, 2012, 05:59 AM   #56
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I used to mix up the rounds in my mags, stagger different HP and FMJs. looking back I wish I had not just kinda silly and if I had ever had to use it I am fairly certain the question would have come up in court. Now I just carry a good quality HP (federal HST, check police HQ/streichers) in the gun with one HP mag and one FMJ mag as backup. as far as round nose Vs. flat tip FMJ ammo, i dont know that it makes any real difference but i prefer the flat tip if and when I can find it (9mm)
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Old April 4, 2012, 06:06 AM   #57
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semi, The average joe (or bad guy for that matter) should be able to see a person at 50-100yds without too much trouble, and I would not put it past someone to take a shot at somebody else at the distance and personally if felt I was able to shoot back and actually hit I would. I will grant you that such a shot would not be easy by any means, especially with and handgun at a moving target, but with good training and technique it would be possible.
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Old April 4, 2012, 09:39 AM   #58
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I don't know if there's any religion involved here or not, as one contributor suggested, but there's certainly a lot of faith involved. I didn't read the whole thing that closely but has anyone suggested using hard-cast lead semi-wadcutters? They will work in an automatic and in fact I've loaded such (swaged, actually) in a 9mm and used them in a Browning Hi-Power. In all honesty, however, I can't recommend it because what you end up with is about like a .38 S&W.

Anyone here practice shooting back while looking over their shoulder and running?
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Old April 4, 2012, 01:50 PM   #59
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Rifle vs handgun...

I disagree to a point about ranges.
Yes, a armed citizen or license holder should NOT engage armed subjects who are far away BUT if a deranged person has a semi auto rifle or a shotgun & is actively killing bystanders, I'd take the calculated risk of a long range shot(providing the area behind the subject was clear).
Some concealed carry pistols are clearly not made for target shooting or long distances but as many gun writers & tactics instructors say; "use enough gun".

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Old April 4, 2012, 02:30 PM   #60
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rotating hollow points and fmj in your ccw's mag?
They are not going to feed and fire well if you rotate them.

You can try alternating them and may be able to get it to still work.
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Old April 4, 2012, 03:29 PM   #61
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as far as what will take down the bad guy... they both will. You have to understand though that everyone says shot placement is very important but no one mentions that in high pressure situations, you will very likely miss. now these statistics are very different everywhere you look. i went to school for criminal justice and work armed. my professors had told me, which are experienced leo's from all over. a trained officer hits his target 10% of the time. there are situations where it takes one, and others that take hundreds of rounds. that being said fmj's are dangerous as they have more penatration if you miss. depending where you "work" many are not able to carry ball ammo what-so-ever. if it were up to me which i did at times, two mags of hp and one of fmj just in case you need penatration. if you make it to the third mag where you are using fmj's, you are probably in big trouble anyways or your assailant is behing good cover.
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Old April 4, 2012, 05:47 PM   #62
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This has likely been mentioned, but my concern with FMJ would be shoot-throughs. Two bad things can happen from that. First, the round has not dumped all of its energy in the bad guy--only part of it. Second, after the bullet has gone completely through the bad guy, it might hit someone or something that you don't want to shoot. I would stick with hollow points unless you live in NJ where they're illegal.
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Old April 4, 2012, 07:58 PM   #63
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Mixing ammo is a bad bandaid. Use the best ammo you can in an appropriate caliber and fill the magazine with it.

As for long shots, while unlikely and usually unwise, engaging an active shooter at relatively long range is certainly justifiable, especially in states with no duty to retreat.
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Old April 5, 2012, 12:10 PM   #64
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While I agree in theory with the idea of picking the best ammo for a caliber and just sticking to it, rather than mixing, there are scenarios where there is no single best ammo for the caliber, because you don't know what the situation is going to be.

Here's an example... I just bought a 10mm 1911 for woods carry. I don't know what kind of threat I might encounter in the woods that might necessitate the use of that gun. It might be a black bear (let's say a smallish one, to be realistic for that caliber), a mountain lion, a wild hog, a human, or any number of threats that I'm not even thinking of. For a large non-human animal, I think the best ammo for that pistol is probably a heavy hardcast round of the fastest velocity available for that bullet weight. This would be very hot ammo, and would easily punch completely through a human torso without dumping much of its energy or expanding... so it's probably a poor choice against a human, but a much better choice against a largish animal where it might be necessary to punch through tough hide or bone.

So in this situation, what would you load in a carry weapon, assuming you only wanted to carry one handgun (no rifle or shotgun)? Would you pick some type of round that is a compromise, being not very good for most threat types because its overgeneralized, or would you mix ammo types, perhaps hardcast with hollow points, so that you've always got at least a few rounds of the ideal ammo in the gun? I'm assuming any threat that would necessitate rapid use of the pistol would make it impractical to be able to quickly swap separate magazines loaded with different ammo, nor would I probably have the collected presence of mind to be able to think about which mag to load before I shoot. I would want that ammo to already be in my gun.

I'm genuinely interested in people's opinions on this matter, as it's something I've pondered but haven't made up my mind about.
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Old April 5, 2012, 12:30 PM   #65
Nakanokalronin
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Darmok, If I was carrying a semi-auto to defend myself against 2 legged and 4 legged threats, I would carry ammo in the magazine and chamber for the 2 legged type and an extra magazine for the 4 legged type. Unless there are reports of 4 legged creatures attacking people left and right, I'd rather have my handgun loaded and ready for the more dangerous of the two.
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Old April 5, 2012, 12:49 PM   #66
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Darmok, If I was carrying a semi-auto to defend myself against 2 legged and 4 legged threats, I would carry ammo in the magazine and chamber for the 2 legged type and an extra magazine for the 4 legged type. Unless there are reports of 4 legged creatures attacking people left and right, I'd rather have my handgun loaded and ready for the more dangerous of the two.
A fair point, Nak, and I've considered doing just that. Its not so clear-cut in my mind though as to which is the more dangerous threat. Some of the areas where I've hiked are fairly remote, and the chances of encountering another human, much less one that I would feel the need to shoot in defense, are relatively small (though not nonexistent, so I'd still want the ability for rapid protection against them).

I have come face-to-face with surprised black bear on more than one occasion though (including one very tense incident where a sow had two cubs with her), and in every case there would have been zero time to swap magazines if the situation turned for the worse. I can easily think of many situations I've been in where the threat from a human attacker versus an animal attacker might well have been 50/50. So what should I carry in such a situation? Do I keep swapping magazines every time I perceive ("perceive" being a very tenuous word here) the threat to shift away from 50/50 as I am walking? Hardly practical.

I still just don't know what the right answer is.
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Old April 5, 2012, 02:33 PM   #67
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Personally, I carry all HP rounds.

But.....

Kyle Defoor, who has much more experience than I (and probably most people here), alternates in his personal weapons.

His stated purpose is for defeating intermediate barriers, in particular automobile glass. NATO spec 9mm FMJ rounds have better performance against glass than even bonded HP rounds.
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Old April 5, 2012, 02:45 PM   #68
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In the woods, I carry mmo based on the largest 4 legged threat. If a round will work on a black ear or large hog or mountain lion, it will work on a man but a round that won't penetrate is useless against a large animal.
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Old April 5, 2012, 02:48 PM   #69
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Damrok carry whichever round makes you more comfortable against black bears. Any type of ammunition out of a 10mm will be plenty for a two legged attacker.
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Old April 5, 2012, 03:20 PM   #70
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Quote:
If a round will work on a black ear or large hog or mountain lion, it will work on a man
You may well be right, but I'm not convinced that this is necessarily the case. If a heavy hardcast round carries so much momentum that it simply punches a relatively small hole completely through a man, but manages to avoid any damage to vital organs because of a lack of expansion, would it really be as effective as against a large (or heavily-built) animal where the round has a chance to completely stop inside the body and therefore dump all its energy? I'm assuming the worst case where I only manage to get a single round to connect with my target, and that I can't be guaranteed of good shot placement (a very reasonable scenario).

Another way of looking at it is, if I fire, say, two successive shots into a human attacker, placed less-than-optimally, and one of them is a hollow point, I suspect that it would do a lot more damage than firing 2 hardcast bullets into him. On the other hand, shooting those same two alternate shots into a bear would likely do less damage than firing two hardcast bullets. So maybe that does give the net edge to 100% hardcast, but it depends greatly on the situation.

I appreciate your opinion, and that of themaliciousOne--it definitely gives me further food for thought!
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Old April 5, 2012, 04:01 PM   #71
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If a round doesn't damage vital organs, it won't be from a lack of expansion. It will be from a lack of shot placement. As for dumping energy, that is a very misused and misunderstood term. Bullets don't dump energy, they cause damage. Energy is simply a measure of the potential to cause damage. The damage is what stops and/or kills the threat. A hard bullet that doesn't expand in a man won't expand in an animal either. In fact, that bullet will hit the animals vitals while going slower and most likely cause less damage because of this. It will likely be going slower because of the extra tissue it must penetrate first. Yes, hollow points that expand well are more effective on humans but a good hardcast bullet will still be effective. On a large animal, a hollowpoint that doesn't penetrate to the vitals is basically useless.
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Old April 5, 2012, 04:07 PM   #72
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One more thing, at rifle velocities, one expanding bullet could easily be as effective or more so than 2 non expanding ones. At handgun velocities, that is not the case unless you are talking about an out of the ordinary handload in something like a 454 where velocities can get into rifle like territory.
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Old April 5, 2012, 05:55 PM   #73
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Thanks for those additional thoughts, SRH78, you're definitely beginning to sway me in the direction of carrying only hardcast when in the woods. I've got my eye on some Buffalo Bore 220 grain 10mm for that purpose, which supposedly clocks in around 1200fps--pretty damned impressive for such a heavy bullet for the caliber.
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Old April 5, 2012, 06:43 PM   #74
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You are very welcome and IMO that would be a very good load for woods carry and likely what I would carry myself if I carried a 10mm.
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Old April 5, 2012, 09:21 PM   #75
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Duty-carry rounds; Winchester 9mmNATO, Hornady Critical Duty +P 9x19mm....

For my S&W Military and Police 9x19mm pistol, I have Winchester 9mmNATO FMJs for my spare mags & either Golden Saber 124gr JHP +P or the new Hornady Critical Duty 135gr +P.
The Critical Duty 9x19mm +P loads are hard to obtain but I like the ballistics/factory specs.
The large PD in my city issues the Ranger T 127gr +P+ JHP 9x19mm. I've owned & used a few boxes in the past but I prefer the new +P Critical Duty.

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