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Old April 5, 2012, 07:46 AM   #51
ATW525
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How many shooting disciplines are there that both 1911s and Toks can compete? Most that I'm aware of have a minimum caliber of. 355-.357 which excludes the Tok from competing.
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Old April 5, 2012, 08:20 AM   #52
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That is just an example of competition limiting a useful weapon and cartridge.
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Old April 5, 2012, 08:46 AM   #53
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How many shooting disciplines are there that both 1911s and Toks can compete? Most that I'm aware of have a minimum caliber of. 355-.357 which excludes the Tok from competing.
This is the other main reason I've pushed the Tok aside in favor of other guns and have yet to aquire one.

Such a stupid rule... Tok should easily make major power factor
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Old April 5, 2012, 09:50 AM   #54
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"It would in fact be disingenuous if that was all there was to the statement, but it isn't. I find it to be disingenuous to take one portion of a statement intended to stand as a whole and to portray it in some other fashion."

It was brought out as part of the part and parcel argument that you were making. I focused on it because it was, and remains, seriously tenuous.
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Old April 5, 2012, 11:13 AM   #55
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Easy question!

Considering the battles that the Russians fought, under the conditions, with abysmal logistic supply (I'm a reader with a passion for Stalingrad), and insane leadership, I'll take a .45 thank you very much.

I'd rather wear the Army Green of the USA than to wear the tattered uniform of the Red army. Another side benefit of being issued the .45 (indicating that I was a member of US armed Forces) is that being issued a pistol generally indicates being an officer, and I would HATE to be an officer in the Red Army during Stalin's purges.

They are both pistols, they are both lousy offensive weapons, espically with military issue ammunition (though it seems more likely that you would actually be issued ammunition as a US soilder.)

VR

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Old April 5, 2012, 11:29 AM   #56
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7.62x25 all the way
The question was as your only weapon not as a backup or only defensive weapon
I would want something that was designed to reach out and touch someone at over 50 yards
If I was on a crew served weapon and needed something for a backup gun for short range it would be the 45 for knock down power
But as your only weapon would have to go with the tok
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Old June 9, 2012, 09:16 PM   #57
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Tokarev for me.

I will take my Tokarev to the range and put more rounds through it than I ever could with a .45. That way a head shot or shot to the heart and that will stop any attacker. Ok yes for self defense I will carry it loaded with HP rounds. It is so thin I can even carry it IWB wearing a T-shirt.
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Old June 10, 2012, 05:27 PM   #58
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1911 beats the Tokarev, end of story.
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Old June 10, 2012, 05:51 PM   #59
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cost to build?
1911s dont stand a chance,QTY vs QLTY
So you can have several more in service ......even equip ea person with 2 Russian gems each
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Old June 10, 2012, 10:50 PM   #60
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The 1911A1 is cooler than the Tok TT-33.

However, the wartime PPSh-41 is rather cooler than the wartime M1A1 Thompson.

The 7.62x25 Tok came into its own in the insanely rapid-fire subguns it was shot from.
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Old September 25, 2012, 05:29 AM   #61
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when all things looked at TOKAREV

I would take the Tokarev for a few reasons. One I don't use hallow points ever. I use my tokarev in a custom holster for CCW. I use the S&B FMJ as they are the fastest averages about 1600 fps. Impact is probably 500 lbs. I once shot a BOB and while it did not fall over it did whip back. If I shoot a gallon milk jug filled with water and frozen solid it goes through, shatters the ice and the jug goes flying.

During the over 100 year war between British and French the French straight saber killed twice as many people as the British curved Saber. Because a cut may bleed nore but if it fails to hit an organ it is stitched up. It is for this same reason that the tokarev round his more killing power and not "stopping" power. This is applied to wounding and not killing using hallow points. This is why 80% of people who get shot by handguns live in the US.


The tokarev itself is a pound lighter, is better for one handed fire so I can use a knife in my other. The bullets and the mag is lighter. So you can carry more ammo for the same weight. Accuracy I hate to break to people is better with my compensator and the S&B ammo I can shoot hand size groups all day at 10 yards and hit a human size Target center mass at 25. Better shots than me at the range have scored hits with my Tokarev at 100. The tokarev half cock safety works well and yeah I have carried 8 in the mag and 1 in the chamber for a year now. I have thrown the gun on the ground (loaded with blanks) to show people that the gun goes not go off. Is it different? Yes... Require some practice to be good with? Yes.

The Tokarev is only a problem to people who are bias and love the 1911 and our fat American hand gun bullet belief. But fact is if I shoot someone with my S&B FMJ it is going to go all the way through them, probably hit something vital and my attacker will have two holes to spew blood from rather than one. Hunters don't use big fat slow bullets on any size game. The 7.62x54r I hunt with out of my Mosin Nagant has dropped large deer and boar being only a 174gr bullet.

Modern combat I think the FN Five SeveN beats both with a 30 round extended mag with armor piercing ammo. Because in terms of being outnumbered havng more bullets to fire matters more. But between the 1911 and the Tokarev I take the tokarev because what it lacks in stopping it makes up for being more fatal, being able to carry more ammo at the same weight and being easier to use in CQC. Yes the 1911 wins the popularity contest, but people re tell what some other guy says rather than what they have done and seen themselves.

I have carried the tokarev in CCW and on a weekend hunt. And carried a1911 (rock island mill spec) in the same situations. It's why I can put myself in a military weight Vs resource scenario to view the tokarev the winner in.
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Old September 25, 2012, 06:29 AM   #62
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I wouldn't be surprised to learn that 80% of people shot with handguns live in the U.S.

If you want to read more about swords in combat, read about the charge of the Heavy Brigade. The Light Brigade got all the press but the Heavy Brigade did all right.
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Old September 25, 2012, 09:25 AM   #63
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Quote:
I own both
1911 is way more sturdy and durable IMO and I would rather carry it
Both are single stacks
Both have great killing power,them 7.62x25s are HOT loads
but the TT33 lack quality
Mine lacks no quality whatsoever.

Perhaps you're fimilar with the romanians or even worse the yugos?..

My polish is 50 years only and the finish stills great and the gun is a tight as it should be
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Old September 25, 2012, 10:51 AM   #64
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"During the over 100 year war between British and French the French straight saber killed twice as many people as the British curved Saber."

Uhm...

You do realize that the Hundred Years War happened long before either the British cavalry sabre or the French Cavalry Sword were designed?
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Old September 25, 2012, 10:55 AM   #65
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"TT33 lack quality"

Hum...

I can only assume that you're looking at finish, polishing, bluing, etc.

The Soviets taught the world some very important lessons about arms production during war time -- how something looks doesn't mean diddly about how it operates.

If it functions well (and Soviet WW II era weapons almost universally do) it doesn't matter if it looks as if it's been gnawed on by rats and pounded with hammers.

Spend your time fine finishing the parts that need to be finished, and you'll get more guns out the door and into the hands of the troops.
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Old September 26, 2012, 11:23 AM   #66
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Crazy to see this thread resurrected. My opinion on the matter still stands, but I daresay that I think it would mostly be a matter of ammunition availability. I would never use my Tokarev in a self defense situation because I cannot find any HP rounds for it anywhere, so ball it is. A reliable .45 with good Hornadys or the like will be a perfect HD gun. In combat, it wouldn't matter to me what I was using as it would probably be the cheapest ball ammunition I could find. China is probably the only place I can think of that ammo could be had in volume, although I am sure troops face them in Afghanistan from time to time (mostly Makarovs and 9mms, though, I'm sure). The 1911 can be had in a much more customized, and therefore "better", platform than a Tokarev could, but that doesn't mean that if the round were popular that it wouldn't be a highly desired and customizable platform. I, of course, would prefer a 1911 any day, but then again, I'm not concerning myself in combat with my sidearm. It just needs to work. I'm grabbing a rifle when the chips are down.
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Old September 26, 2012, 11:27 AM   #67
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Plenty of defensive 7.62x25 here.

http://shop.reedsammo.com/category.sc?categoryId=14
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Old September 26, 2012, 11:33 AM   #68
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Hmm... seems they are willing to ship to Chicago? It doesn't say we're restricted. Seriously, thank you for the link!
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Old September 26, 2012, 11:37 AM   #69
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No problem!

I'm very interested in their 60gr loading. I'm wondering why it says cz52 only.. I thought the 52's were weaker then toks.

60gr@2000fps makes 5.7 look like childs play...if their claims are accurate
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Old September 26, 2012, 11:50 AM   #70
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I've heard the CZs are sturdier, and they look it, too. But I think it's a bullcorn. Unless it says is specifically on the box, I wouldn't believe it. I can't find any reliable data on CIP max pressures, but I would be astounded if they are at all different. You shouldn't be shooting the machine gun stuff out of either gun, if you ask me.
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Old September 26, 2012, 12:26 PM   #71
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I had read that the wounding mechanism were different for both calibers. .45 makes a big hole, the 7.62x25 turns bone into high velocity shrapnel. That is why the x25 is dreaded in Hong Kong ( or was ), not the penetration but the wounds were ghastly, and hard to fix.
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Old September 26, 2012, 12:39 PM   #72
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I've heard the CZs are sturdier, and they look it, too.
Oddly enough, there are more reports and photos out there of kaboomed CZ-52's than TT-33's out there, in fact I don't think I've ever seen photos of a blown-up TT.
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Old September 26, 2012, 12:48 PM   #73
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You know, Mike's right. I'll hush.

Last edited by Technosavant; September 26, 2012 at 04:42 PM.
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Old September 26, 2012, 01:02 PM   #74
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"I rather strongly suppose that user is an alt of the OP who, by the way, hasn't taken part in any discussion here for about six months."

Yeah, because no one else would ever think to claim to like the Tokarev. After all, it's not a 1911, so it has to be one slightly insane guy and his sock puppet.

Please don't hurt yourself jumping to conclusions.

If you suspect something of the sort, use the "report post" button to make your suspicions to staff and we will sort out whether or not a poster is a duplicate.

Calling another member out openly in the forums, though?

That has the potential to end VERY badly for the person who does so.
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Old March 17, 2013, 06:00 PM   #75
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I picked up a Zastava M57 just for fun and I was surprised how well it shot .... I've been a 1911 guy since I was a young man and I certainly don't see that changing, but it is a neat toy. So far it has proven to be reliable and reasonably accurate .... In short, I think it is an interesting addition to the collection and fun at the range. Is there really anything that it needs to be other than that? As for self defense I carry an LCR 357 and I am comfortable with it ... a 1911 is just too large in most circumstances for me to conceal. I don't think the M57 would ever make my short list for carry but that may very well be due to my general newness to the platform.
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