The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 21, 2012, 09:22 PM   #1
1stmar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,269
More brass questions ...

In searching through these threads to find some answers, I found the following post from frankenmauser.

"Weighing brass is pretty much an exercise in futility (and consequently, so is weighing final assembled rounds). It might be an interesting mental exercise for hyper-consistent reloading, but it is pretty much pointless for normal humans
In one of my .30-06 loads, the difference between 0.490" groups and 1.5"+ groups is flash hole uniforming and weight sorting the brass. (100 yards)"

This is a great example of what I was looking for, I'm curious if this is typical. My questions are:

Does anyone else have data like this you can share (how much impact does sorting brass have on accuracy)?

And

I typically sort my brass by number of x loaded, which is more important, sorting by number of x loaded or by weight?
1stmar is online now  
Old March 21, 2012, 09:38 PM   #2
mrawesome22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 9, 2005
Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills.
Posts: 3,779
For rifles, sorting brass is the only way you are going to bring out the true potential of your gun. Same weight, same internal volume. Norma and Lapua do this for you.

Acurracy and consistency go hand in hand. Consistent brass, consistent bullets, consistent powder charge, consistent holes on the target because velocity is consistent.

If you size your brass properly, the primer pocket gets too loose before any other issues arise. I quit keeping track of how many times a case has been reloaded.
mrawesome22 is offline  
Old March 21, 2012, 09:52 PM   #3
1Hobie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2010
Location: west central Illinois
Posts: 272
Yes, I found that to get the utmost accuracy from my .308, all of the different components need to be consistent in size, weight, and dimension.

My wife once commented on how come it took me so long to "build" a round for my rifle. I just said "it takes time to sort the wheat from the chaff". My .308 will shoot sub moa all day long and that makes the time spent worth it.

Hobie
1Hobie is offline  
Old March 22, 2012, 03:35 AM   #4
1stmar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,269
Totally agree, everything needs to be consistent, I'm looking to understand how the elements play a factor. If two cases weighed the same (trimmed to same length), primer pockets were uniformed, but were different brands of brass, what other elements would distinguish themselves and how do you take those elements into account if they were same head stamp?
1stmar is online now  
Old March 22, 2012, 04:41 AM   #5
1Hobie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2010
Location: west central Illinois
Posts: 272
If they're the same headstamp, then I'd use them equally. If they weigh the same but are of different manufacturers, the only way you could ascertain they should be treated equal is by doing a volumetric comparison using water. You fill up the different cases to the top, then measure the amount of water each one takes to fill it.
Here's a google link to different sites that go into detail on how to do that.

http://tinyurl.com/6wee2br


Regards,

Hobie
1Hobie is offline  
Old March 22, 2012, 06:08 AM   #6
warningshot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 7, 2009
Posts: 995
It is you, the gun, or the ammo.

The biggest factor here is , 'Yew'.

I want to see the man who can shoot up to a milspec Factory Colt Sporter Rifle with Red Box Federal 62 grain FMJs or using the U.S. M885 round. Go ahead, shoot the timed standing to sitting and prone positions from 200, 300 and 600 meters.

The present day Palma Team shooters and Individual record breakers look at me eye-to-eye and tell me to reload .223 or .308 on you starndard everyday press and spend you time & money on...can you believe this...practice.

What do they know?
warningshot is offline  
Old March 22, 2012, 06:50 AM   #7
1stmar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,269
Warningshot, I think at a high level everyone who shoots groups is striving for that at some level, the best way of know what you are capable of is by removing the other factors. If I put my first three shots into 1 hole and the next shot is .5 or 1 inch away, was is me, the ammo or the rifle? By ensuring consistency with the ammo and using a trusted rifle, the only thing left is my ability. Finding out what I am capable of is the goal, eliminating as many of the outside factors as possible is the way to achieving that goal. Identifying the right places to spend time and money makes the way the most efficient.
1stmar is online now  
Old March 22, 2012, 10:08 AM   #8
Magnum Wheel Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2006
Location: Southern Minnesota
Posts: 8,371
for close range general shooting I don't weigh my cases... but I am pretty annal in my loading procedures... I do trim my cases accurate to a couple thousanths, I do sort my brass by brand, even on general purpose handgun rounds... my CASS lever action 45 Colt rounds are the same used in my revolvers, & they are always the same brand of brass, & trimmed to tight tolorances ( I use a file trim die... slower to use, but find I can get tighter trim specs using it than power trimmers )

for long range stuff for example my heavy barrel 223, I use milspec ( lake city ) cases, sorted by lot number & weight... I'm confident my rounds shoot more accurately than I do... but I have my own 300 yard rifle range, & routinely like to shoot ( sitting at my bench ) out to 300 yards
__________________
In life you either make dust or eat dust...
Magnum Wheel Man is offline  
Old March 27, 2012, 10:40 AM   #9
RobertInIowa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 4, 2012
Location: Iowa
Posts: 149
I like to shoot a .223 rem bolt at 100 yards for accuracy. I use any case, new, range or otherwise, well prepared, including deburring flashhole (which subbed another .25 moa from my groups).

I can shoot sub moa all day with the average being under .6 moa. When I feel like getting really tight groups then I sort and weigh cases, only use fireformed neck sized brass etc. With the right gun and the right shooter, anything is possible with the brass, you just have to have the skills and be willing to put the time in.

For every bit of data there is to collect, there is at least someone anal enough to have put in the time to have gathered it at some point.
__________________
Guns don't kill people, fathers with pretty daughters do.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three comes pretty close.
Proud NRA member
RobertInIowa is offline  
Old March 27, 2012, 08:03 PM   #10
1stmar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,269
Lucky dog magnum wheel, nice setup.

Robert, thanks for the info. Flash holes is not something I have paid much attention to. Always cleaned primer pockets though.
1stmar is online now  
Old March 28, 2012, 04:34 PM   #11
thedaddycat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2011
Posts: 388
There are so many factors that you can drive yourself crazy if you want to. Let's look at some of the basics.

Trimmed to length: What length to trim to, SAAMI minimum spec or are you going to measure your chamber and trim to actual chamber length minus .020" or something similar?

After-trimming: Chamfer, debur, buff case mouth/polish case with 0000 steel wool?

Sizing: Are you going to FL size every time or are you going to neck size only unless you need to set the shoulder back? How far do you set the shoulder back if/when needed or just FL size then?

Cleaning your brass: Do you decap first? Tumbler, sonic cleaner, SS pin tumbler, boil in vinegar, etc?

Primer pockets: Clean them or not? Clean with what, Lee type tool, brush type tool, PP uniformer, if milsurp do you swage or ream the crimp out, etc...

Flash hole: Debur, uniform, or do nothing?

Case sorting: By headstamp, lot, weight? If by weight then in what increments? XX.X grains but anything within 0.Y grains is OK or do they all have to be exact weight?

Crimp: Roll crimp, taper crimp, Lee FCD crimp, no crimp?

Those are just a few of the more common factors and if you go through all possible combinations you would probably have to live to be a hundred years old or more...

For some stuff a quick cleaning and load 'em is fine. My daughter likes to shoot up all the .38 Special I bring to the range every time we go, so those get the "quickie" treatment. A 158 grain pill over 3.5 grains of WST and into the box it goes. If you're trying for a ragged hole at long range, that's just not going to cut the mustard though.
thedaddycat is offline  
Old March 28, 2012, 08:49 PM   #12
1Hobie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2010
Location: west central Illinois
Posts: 272
Truly you can drive yourself crazy striving for the exact load. But as a hobby, I enjoy tuning each round to squeeze out the best. I end up sometimes chasing my tail, but what the heck, my time, my effort, my money, my guns.

Actually, re-loading is what you make of it. The #1 goal is a safe round. The #2 goal is a consistent round. #3 is a crazy accurate safe load that can dot an eye at x range.

My .02 worth.


Hobie
1Hobie is offline  
Old March 28, 2012, 09:03 PM   #13
1stmar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,269
I definetly enjoy reloading, almost as much as shooting, but the tinkering can seem endless and frustrating given so many variables and outside influences. I don't get to the range as much as I would like so when I do I want it to be productive and enjoyable.
1stmar is online now  
Old March 28, 2012, 09:08 PM   #14
1Hobie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2010
Location: west central Illinois
Posts: 272
"I definetly enjoy reloading, almost as much as shooting, but the tinkering can seem endless and frustrating given so many variables and outside influences. I don't get to the range as much as I would like so when I do I want it to be productive and enjoyable."

Yes it can be. There are many times I take ammo to the range that is known good be it commercial or just stock reloads because I want to just have fun and not have to analyze each shot.

The sport is what we make it.

Hobie
1Hobie is offline  
Old March 31, 2012, 02:37 PM   #15
hooligan1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2010
Location: Independence Missouri
Posts: 3,356
Frequent range trips.

If I load up say three loads for data, for a specific rifle of mine, I don't wait, I go to the range that weekend and see how it works,, if it don't like the results, I discard the data and try something different like OALs or powder.
To this day I have never had the desire to weigh my brass, and in my 7 mm rem mag loads I use two different brands of brass, Hornady and Winchester. The diferences that "Benchrest shooters" see in their accuracy due to varying weights in their brass, doesn't really affect what I'm looking for in a hunting load,, yes I'm looking for top-notch accracy but not necessarily one- hole at 500 yds accuracy..(although that would be nice)
__________________
Thanks for coming!
hooligan1 is offline  
Old March 31, 2012, 02:50 PM   #16
1stmar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,269
I have a 22-250 that would consistently shoot .39-.69 in groups, frankly I'm not sure I can do a lot better. If I can maintain consistent groups in that range I'm reasonable satisfied, I prefer .25-.5. Consistency is more important to me. I'd rather have .4-.6 groups then .2-.8.
1stmar is online now  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09756 seconds with 9 queries