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Old March 15, 2012, 11:14 PM   #1
sks
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CCI 450 vs 400 primers

My dad was given about 2,000 CCI 450 "magnum" primers by a friend who got out of reloading. Since my dad doesn't reload for small rifle he passed them along to me.

So my question is what is the difference between these two primers? None of my reloading data even lists these primers with .223/5.56 loads. Why can't they be used with other powders?

As safety is rule #1 I am not planning on using them, just curious as to the difference and wondering where I can use them.

Thanks
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Old March 16, 2012, 06:00 AM   #2
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The powder column in a 223 is not that big but you could easily develop a load using the hotter primers. I wouldn't hesitate to use them with either ball or stick powders. Just start at the low end and work up.
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Old March 16, 2012, 07:28 AM   #3
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CCI 450s are all that I use in my AR's because of the thicker cup, but I worked the load up using standard loading practice and starting well below max powder charges.


a summary of the A-Square test of primers in the Remington 7mm Mag. as published in "Handloader" magazine. This shows why you should always rework a pet load if you switch primer brand or from standard to magnum

160 grain Sierra boat-tail, 66.0 grains of Hodgdon H-4831 and Winchester cases.


Winchester WLRM (magnum) 3045 fps, 67,600 psi

Winchester WLR (standard) 3024 fps, 64,400 psi

Federal 215 (magnum) 3036 fps, 61,400 psi

CCI 250 (magnum) 3039 fps, 61,500 psi

Remington 9½ M (magnum) 3041 fps, 59,300 psi

CCI 200 (standard) 3011 fps, 54,800 psi


edit found another good source for primer chronograph.pressure info here

http://kwk.us/chronographs.html
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Last edited by hounddawg; March 16, 2012 at 07:34 AM.
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Old March 16, 2012, 08:27 AM   #4
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Charles Petty ran primers in .223 in a 2006 Handloader. His data leads you to the same conclusion: Just do your load workup with the primer you intend to use and you'll be fine.

Note that in 1989, CCI optimized their magnum primers for igniting the spherical powders available at the time. This would include all the original St. Marks military powders that are sold in canister grade as the Winchester Ball powders and Hodgdon spherical powders. Some of the newer stuff, like Western's Ramshot line and Alliant's Power Pro powders apparently light more easily.

All current military primers are magnum level, so this isn't unsafe in any way. You just have to be aware pressure may be increased using at least some magnum primers. I recommend you read this article for basic information about primers that all handloaders should know.
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Old March 16, 2012, 08:38 AM   #5
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IIRC, Speer data recommends a magnum primer (CCI 450) for all ball powder loads in 5.56/.223.
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Old March 16, 2012, 02:27 PM   #6
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Great link Nick. I have never been able to get my AR to group the way I feel it should and have tried 3 different powders in it. I think I will load up some test batches using a non magnum primer and give them a try
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Old March 16, 2012, 03:09 PM   #7
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Try a different bullet. I suggest the Sierra Semi Point 63 grains.
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Old March 16, 2012, 03:22 PM   #8
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Thanks flash but I have tried everything from 55 grains to 69 grains and still cannot achieve much below 1 MOA consistently doing 5 shots from a rest with scope. The barrel I have on it should be a good .5 MOA barrel in theory. I bet I have 15 different brands/weights of .223 bullets in the drawer and figure it is accurate enough for NRA high power club matches which our club shoots all 3 positions at 200 yards.
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Old March 16, 2012, 06:07 PM   #9
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Thanks for the information everyone. Good article Nick!

I've got an email into CCI to see what their take on it is and will post when I get a response.
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Old March 16, 2012, 09:06 PM   #10
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Let us know if they have anything to ad to what Alan Jones said, but since he worked for them I expect their thinking to be similar to his.


Houndog,

I've had excellent results with the KVB556M primers, NATO spec magnum primers. Cheap and very, very consistent if seated properly. I think the late Creighton Audette's observation that primers are analog and not digital is salient. Different degrees of compression of the priming compound bridge between anvil and cup gets you different speed and vigor of response. Strive hard to optimize consistency for that.

What is your rifling pitch? If 9" or slower, try the 53 grain Sierra MatchKing. It's flat base. It is, for several technical reasons, easier to get flat base bullets tuned in than boattails (see Bryan Litz's Ballistics for Long Range Shooting), especially at ranges under 200 yards. If your twist is faster, Berger has flat base match grade varmint bullets up to 64 grains.

What powders are you using? When in doubt, drop back to IMR 4198. It has good accuracy characteristics, even if you can't get the last 150 fps out of it. If you need that speed, try Reloader 10X.
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Old March 19, 2012, 11:43 PM   #11
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Response from CCI/Speer

Below is the answer I received from Austin at CCI/Speer. Guess I'll have to find a load and go from there. My Lee reloding manual doesn't have any with the 450 primers so I'll look elsewhere.

We can only recommend load data from our #14 Reload Manual. And for .223 Remington we have load data that suggests use of our 450 primer. So they are safe to use for the specified propellants.

Currently I have some IMR-4198, Varget and H-4895 and loading 55gr FMJBT bullets. I'll post the load when I've got it worked out.
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Old March 20, 2012, 05:02 AM   #12
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I have tried TAC and Varget Nick. 1 in 8 twist barrel. Right now I am just using the AR as a 100/200 yard plinker and it is more accurate than I am with open sights. If I ever buy a .223 barrel for one of my bolt guns I will keep the 4198 in mind and may even try those 53 grainers in the AR with the RL10 since I have a good supply of RL10 for my .204
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Old March 20, 2012, 06:09 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKS
My dad was given about 2,000 CCI 450 "magnum" primers ... what is the difference between these two primers? None of my reloading data even lists these primers with .223/5.56 loads.
Use them with assurance. Most all loading manuals/AR shooters recommend military primers as default for gas guns, and they are (by my own chrono measurements) even slightly hotter than the 450

Quote:
Originally Posted by hounddawg
...1 in 8 twist barrel. ... I will keep the 4198 in mind...
You need heavier bullets for that twist -- 69-77grainers really shine. You should also take a real hard look at Accurate 2520.
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Old March 20, 2012, 09:17 AM   #14
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Quote:
mehavey You need heavier bullets for that twist -- 69-77grainers really shine. You should also take a real hard look at Accurate 2520.
will keep that in mind if I ever work through that 5 pounds of TAC I still have left. The AR is the only gun I have that seems to like it. My biggest problem with that AR is I expect it to shoot bench rest groups and that will neve6r happen no matter what bullet/powder combo I use. I can get sub MOA with 69's when I use it with a scope and have a ball shooting it open sights and getting 8 - 10 inch groups at 200 so I think I will just settle for that.
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Old March 20, 2012, 11:48 AM   #15
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Perhaps a rifle shooting glass would help? I like mine. If you get one, just get a glass lens. You want to be able to wipe oil off it with your shirt tails without scratching it.
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Old March 20, 2012, 05:58 PM   #16
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heh heh those work well, a friend of mine that just passed used one of those to set several records at a Narional level. I am fortunate in that my eyesight is of the type that can see perfectly when looking though a peep sight. I am nearsighted as heck in my right eye but that aperture does magic and I can see the black at 200 yards like it is right in front of me....now if I can ever get em all in the ten ring shooting offhand .......
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Old March 20, 2012, 07:19 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hounddawg
aperture does magic and I can see the black at 200 yards like it is right in front of me....
What are you focusing on....?
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