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Old March 13, 2012, 05:08 PM   #1
cajun47
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do you agree? if a bullet penetrates 1/2" pine board, its deadly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUM1r_444CY
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Old March 13, 2012, 05:43 PM   #2
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The video is full of misused words. The guys went from penetrating the board may cause a lethal wound to the Minx definitely causing lethal wounds.

Penetrates 1/2" pine is deadly? No, do not agree. Penetrates a 1/2" and may be deadly, then sure.

The notion that the Minx is an ideal defensive pistol at close range is pretty stupid. And while if you shoot somebody in a vital spot they will have a bad day, there is nothing there that the threat having a bad day isn't still capable of killing you. The guys in the video have obviously confused the notion of being deadly to being good for self defense. So yeah, you might kill a bad guy with the Minx, eventually, but not before he decides to beat you to death with a baseball bat, takes you wallet, goes home gets a beer and checks out his little wound in the bathroom mirror, pokes at it, and grabs a small towel to press against it while he goes and sits on the couch as watches TV and finishes his beer. Yeah, sure, he may die at some point in the future, but that doesn't make the round ideal for anything.
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Old March 13, 2012, 05:57 PM   #3
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Gelatin would be a better medium than a board.
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Old March 13, 2012, 06:11 PM   #4
Frank Ettin
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DNS has nailed it. A .22 can certainly kill someone; but whether, if he's attacking you, a .22 will stop him quickly enough to keep him from hurting you badly is another question entirely.

There are four ways in which shooting someone stops him:
  1. psychological -- "I'm shot, it hurts, I don't want to get shot any more."
  2. massive blood loss depriving the muscles and brain of oxygen and thus significantly impairing their ability to function
  3. breaking major skeletal support structures
  4. damaging the central nervous system.

Depending on someone just giving up because he's been shot is iffy. Probably most fights are stopped that way, but some aren't; and there are no guarantees.

Breaking major skeletal structures can quickly impair mobility. But if the assailant has a gun, he can still shoot. And it will take a reasonably powerful round to reliably penetrate and break a large bone, like the pelvis.

Hits to the central nervous system are sure and quick, but the CNS presents a small and uncertain target. And sometimes significant penetration will be needed to reach it.

The most common and sure physiological way in which shooting someone stops him is blood loss -- depriving the brain and muscles of oxygen and nutrients, thus impairing the ability of the brain and muscles to function. Blood loss is facilitated by (1) large holes causing tissue damage; (2) getting the holes in the right places to damage major blood vessels or blood bearing organs; and (3) adequate penetration to get those holes into the blood vessels and organs which are fairly deep in the body. The problem is that blood loss takes time. People have continued to fight effectively when gravely, even mortally, wounded. So things that can speed up blood loss, more holes, bigger holes, better placed holes, etc., help.

So as a rule of thumb --
  • More holes are better than fewer holes.
  • Larger holes are better than smaller holes.
  • Holes in the right places are better than holes in the wrong places.
  • Holes that are deep enough are better than holes that aren't.
  • There are no magic bullets.

The bottom line is that a lower power cartridge with a smaller caliber bullet will make smaller holes and may not be able to as reliably penetrate to where those holes need to be to be most effective.

Or to put it another way, why would anyone think that a .22 will be enough when sometimes a .357 Magnum isn't enough. LAPD Officer Stacy Lim was shot in the chest with a .357 Magnum and still ran down her attacker, returned fire, killed him, survived, and ultimately was able to return to duty.
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Old March 13, 2012, 08:50 PM   #5
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I did some googling using various terms. I can't find anything about a 1/2" pine board equating with lethality by the military. Anyone have a link? I would like to read more about the parameters.

If the Army did this "many years ago," what was meant by 1/2" pine board? Was that 1/2" fresh wood where 1/2" is actually 1/2" or was it 1/2" board that was kiln dried like the board used in the video appears to be, which isn't really 1/2" thick any more and is denser than the non-kiln dried version.
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Old March 13, 2012, 09:04 PM   #6
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air gun level penetration?

my pump pellet gun will penetrate a half inch pine board and more
bb
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Old March 13, 2012, 09:14 PM   #7
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"if a bullet penetrates 1/2" pine board, its deadly."

Knot. Sure it could kill, but so could a skillet. Are we talking old heart pine or soft fast growth pine?
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Old March 13, 2012, 11:16 PM   #8
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Quote:
There are four ways in which shooting someone stops him:
psychological -- "I'm shot, it hurts, I don't want to get shot any more."
massive blood loss depriving the muscles and brain of oxygen and thus
significantly impairing their ability to function
breaking major skeletal support structures
damaging the central nervous system.
I would add to that excellent list that a lung shot is an effective way of stopping someone as it also deprives the body of oxygen but doesn't necessarily cause massive blood loss.
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Old March 13, 2012, 11:30 PM   #9
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I believe that the shot would have to significantly damage both lungs for that to be true. It's possible to survive and function on just one lung. Generally lung shots are incapacitating because lungs have a significant blood supply and damage to them results in a lot of bleeding.
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Old March 14, 2012, 12:46 AM   #10
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If the Army did this "many years ago," what was meant by 1/2" pine board?
And what were they shooting? I've seen this demonstration before, but with a musket. So I wonder if it's an early standard that these guys are extrapolating to a 22.
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Old March 14, 2012, 06:59 AM   #11
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I'd take what those guys say seriously. They're German, aren't they?

Catalogs used to list bullet penetration for handgun cartridges with one-inch boards. When did we go to 1/2-inch boards? Either way, it could be deadly. Lethal, anyway, but probably not a fight stopper.

I think that's a good list of the four ways of stopping someone but I've read several stories of where people have been shot and not known it, usually under battle conditions and stories like that are trotted out when discussing the 9mm. But what do I know? I've never been shot. I know you can cut yourself, sometimes seriously, and not realize it for a few minutes until you start noticing the blood. But that's probably not a good comparison since there's no accompanying knife shot sound.

I wonder about a lung shot, however. It won't be quick and you can certainly hold your breath for a little while, if you remember to. That isn't to say a wound in the lung isn't serious by any means and you can have such a wound without being shot or stabbed. I should also mention that many of the wounds we casually mention here can give a person trouble for the rest of their life.

I might also mention the irritation I have when I see the expression "surgical strike" mentioned in connection with a military operation, as if it were somehow clean and bloodless. While they may be clean, anyone who has witnessed an operation will tell you, they are anything but bloodless, assuming the patient is alive.
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Old March 14, 2012, 07:28 AM   #12
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Quote:
Catalogs used to list bullet penetration for handgun cartridges with one-inch boards.
Yes, they did.

The US Army also used soft pine boards in their tests. The Army determined that a projectile, capable of penetrating a one inch soft pine board, projectile being a certain minimum weight, generating at least 66 foot pounds of energy; was capable of causing an incapacitating casualty.
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Old March 14, 2012, 07:39 AM   #13
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To the original question, "do you agree? if a bullet penetrates 1/2" pine board, its deadly." I simply answer Yes. Didn't watch the video as it's not going to change my mind about anything, regardless of content.
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Old March 14, 2012, 07:51 AM   #14
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I would add to that excellent list that a lung shot is an effective way of stopping someone as it also deprives the body of oxygen but doesn't necessarily cause massive blood loss.
Okay, but the context of the statements were in regard to a .22 being used for self defense. So a lung shot is effective in stopping a person? Many of the agents involved in the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami would likely disagree given that Plattdid most of his wounding and killing AFTER his lung was injured by a 9mm round and filled with blood.
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Old March 14, 2012, 04:36 PM   #15
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do you agree? if a bullet penetrates 1/2" pine board, its deadly.
No. I don't agree. Every bullet is potentially deadly.
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Old March 14, 2012, 04:50 PM   #16
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22 will kill

Years ago the Israel army bought a bunch or Ruger 12-22's. They were looking for a non lethal answer to crowd control. They didn’t work as planned as they killed a lot of the rioters.

The 22 will kill. May take a day or 2 but it will kill. If some one is shooting at you, you want them stopped now. Not in a day or 2.
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Old March 14, 2012, 06:46 PM   #17
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Quote:
cajun47
do you agree? if a bullet penetrates 1/2" pine board, its deadly.
A pellet gun in .177 will penetrate a 1/2" pine board. Can it be deadly, you bet. Can we state that just because it can penetrate 1/2" pine that it is deadly - nope.

A pen CAN be deadly but just because it can be deadly doesn't mean it IS deadly. Big difference
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Old March 14, 2012, 07:20 PM   #18
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It's got to go trough 8" of steel, otherwise what happens if he's in his car wearing a jacket
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Old March 15, 2012, 05:28 AM   #19
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Twenty-Two

Can a .22 be deadly? Sure. There are a lotta graves that bear testimony to that. The .22 has probably killed more people than any other single caliber outside of an active war zone. As the saying goes: "Everybody has a .22 rifle."

About 20 years ago, there was a group of young people driving around at night shooting at houses with a .22 pistol. They were aiming at the lights.

A family was sitting in a living room in a house that was a good 90-100 feet from Westinghouse Road near Rural Hall, NC. The lady...a church pianist...was practicing the tunes that she was going to play on Sunday. A bullet came through the picture window...fragmenting on the glass..and a piece hit her in the chest, nicking her ascending aorta.

She stood up and told her husband that she thought she'd been shot...stumbled...and dropped before he could get up from the recliner and reach her. He said that she never spoke another word after she fell.
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Old March 15, 2012, 11:59 AM   #20
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Well yes.A 1.5 '' board is a good bit thicker that a tea shirt,Or an eye lid
Didnt hear body center mass,or excess range in the question. SO YES !!!
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Old March 15, 2012, 09:45 PM   #21
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Any projectile that can penetrate a 1/2" pine board has the capacity to inflict a lethal wound. PERIOD.

Therefore, in the English I learned, it is deadly. Would it be a fight stopper? Not likely. Would it be instant death? Not likely. Could you die as a result of it? Absolutely, if the conditions are right.

Puncture a major artery, and bleed out before help can arrive. Pehaps even bleed out before you realize you are dying. It has happened. Major medical support doesn't always save people, even when it ought to be "in time".

Anything that has the energy to punch through a 1/2" pine board has the energy to fatally wound a person, if it strikes the right place.

I don't understand why there is any argument, or doubt about that.?

And that totally ignores the fact that even with modern medicine, people still die from infections. Not as many as there used to be, but even with the odds on our side today, some people still die from it. Something that can kill you a week or a month later, I consider deadly, as well.
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