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Old March 12, 2012, 06:50 PM   #1
9mm
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Church carry and the federal gun free zone?

Hi, I know federal law says no guns in buildings that are k-12grade.

My question is what if a church does not list they are a k-2grade, how does one prove if you were on school grounds? if there is no clearly marked signs to make it a school. All the bilboard outside says PRESCHOOL, and no signs or anything inside about being kindergarden.

A church I am going to now just says preschool and I found no info on their website about kindergarden)federal applies to K+ not preschool(.
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Old March 12, 2012, 09:00 PM   #2
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Hi, I know federal law says no guns in buildings that are k-12grade.
Really, I learned something new today, or did I. Never heard that one before
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Old March 12, 2012, 09:21 PM   #3
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Hi, I know federal law says no guns in buildings that are k-12grade.

Quote:
Really, I learned something new today, or did I. Never heard that one before
Glad you learned something

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Fre...es_Act_of_1990
Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990

"K-12grade" school buildings, like public schools/private schools etc..
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Old March 12, 2012, 10:56 PM   #4
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9mm Hi, I know federal law says no guns in buildings that are k-12grade.
The Gun Free School Zone act doesn't say that.
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Old March 13, 2012, 12:26 AM   #5
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............. You cannot carry a gun into a place that is a school ............ = illegal.
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Old March 13, 2012, 02:44 AM   #6
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Yeah, wikipedia is not a preferred source, but notice what the letter says...
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...ccw.pdf&page=1
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Old March 13, 2012, 06:41 AM   #7
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I will not estimate a percentage of us that would violate the gun free school zone law. I do it daily which I do NOT violated because of the following and for the non-believers the following,

Quote:
The Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1990 (P. L. 101-647), as originally enacted, was ruled unconstitutional by the U. S. Supreme Court (United States v. Lopez, 514 U. S. 549 (1995), April 26, 1995). The Act prohibited possession of a firearm in a school zone (on the campus of a public or private school or within 1,000 feet of the grounds). In response to the Court's finding that the Act exceeded Congress's authority to regulate commerce, the 104 th Congress included a provision in P. L. 104-208 that amended the Act to require federal prosecutors to include evidence that the firearms "moved in" or affected interstate commerce.
I guess those who have done half hearted research and then posted links were incorrect.

In closing I'll ask how many members have drove by a school, college campus, church with a school? Many a street I travel passes within 1,000 ft of a school.

I would say that reading it on the Internet leaves something to be desired as to what is truth or myth.
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Old March 13, 2012, 09:51 AM   #8
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I would HIGHLY recommend anyone deciding to carry on school property talk to an attorney who knows firearm laws.

The law was amended after Lopez and since amended has not been over turned.

There are exceptions, your attorney can give you the best advice regarding those exceptions.

One exception that is simple to understand is:

Quote:
(iii) that is— (I) not loaded; and (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle
I spend a lot of time attending my granddaughter's volleyball and basketball games throughout the state. I keep a pistol box and lock in the truck, and simply unload, and lock up my revolver prior to entering the school grounds.

That simple plan (according to every attorney I've talked to) would make it hard for any prosecutor to go after you.

But, as I said, talk to an attorney. It could save you a lot of heart ache.

Remember right, wrong, or indifferent, its gonna cost you a mint in attorney fees to fight the charge. The question is, IS IT WORTH IT.
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Old March 13, 2012, 10:20 AM   #9
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I know that here in Virginia, a CHL holder can be armed on school property while picking up or dropping off kids, as long as s/he stays in the car.
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Old March 13, 2012, 10:48 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mm
............. You cannot carry a gun into a place that is a school ............ = illegal.
Blanket statement such as that tend to be incorrect. Exceptions in the federal law allow permit holders in a number of states to legally carry in school zones, either concealed or open carry. In point of fact, a number of school districts in Utah have statements in their policy manuals covering the legal carrying of firearms in schools, including by school employees. It is illegal for a school or school district in Utah to implement any policy or regulation prohibiting the legal carry of firearms on/in school property.
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Old March 13, 2012, 10:49 AM   #11
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I know that here in Virginia, a CHL holder can be armed on school property while picking up or dropping off kids, as long as s/he stays in the car.
Same goes for Oklahoma. As long as you are staying in your car you are ok. But if you know you will be leaving your vehicle once at the school you have better leave your gun at home.
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Old March 13, 2012, 01:17 PM   #12
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@ Don, I ment in buildings. It is legal to leave a pistol/rifle in my state locked in your car on school grounds(parking lot) just not in the buildings(federal)


Quote:
The Act prohibited possession of a firearm in a school zone (on the campus of a public or private school or within 1,000 feet of the grounds).
It says grounds, like parking lot. Buildings are no no's
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Old March 13, 2012, 04:57 PM   #13
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9mm ....It says grounds, like parking lot. Buildings are no no's
Still wrong.
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Old March 13, 2012, 06:39 PM   #14
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Guns and schools are all regulated by the states. The individual states have differing views on what is acceptable, and what is not.

In WA, there are situations where you can carry into a school building, without a license, and situations where you may not, even with a license.

As for a school in a church? The building is a church, and it may be also used at times as a school...I don't think that qualifies as a "school" under even the stupid unconstitutional federal law, when class is not in session.

RCW 9.41.280 for Washington State
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Old March 15, 2012, 05:59 AM   #15
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The individual states have differing views on what is acceptable, and what is not.
+1
OK students are allowed long guns in locked vehicles on school grounds.
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Old March 15, 2012, 06:54 AM   #16
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Seems funny that even with these lame laws, we still have kids carrying guns to school and shooting people. Here in OH we just had an incident in Chardon but we are not here to discuss silly politics. The church that I attend also has a K-12 school. The church and the school are separate, detached buildings. There is about 12 members that have their CCW but only about 4 of us carry on a regular basis. Our pastor and a few of the staff know who those people are. A few of the CCW holders are staff. As long as the pastor is informed and is comfortable with you carrying it is legal to carry in a church. My children at one time did attend the school. When I would pick them up or be on school grounds, I did carry. If I would attend a sporting event or other function that I was going to be in the school building, I would secure my weapon in the car. If I was their to pick them up, I continued to carry.
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Old March 16, 2012, 10:00 AM   #17
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A church isn't school and even if they do teach a little, the government has this separation thing from church and state, remember? A church is not the Governments jurisdiction.
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Old March 16, 2012, 11:41 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward429451
A church isn't school and even if they do teach a little, the government has this separation thing from church and state, remember? A church is not the Governments jurisdiction.
Government can most certainly regulate various aspects of churches and church schools. There is nothing in the Constitution that prohibits government from exercising some regulation of some aspects of churches and church schools. Churches and church schools must meet fire codes, zoning restrictions, employment laws, etc. State codes may require church schools to maintain immunization records, report suspected cases of child abuse, submit school buses to state inspection, etc. In point of fact, the U.S. Supreme Court earlier this year opined on whether a person was a minister or not, and whether the Church could fire that person.

To the point, 18 USC 921 contains the following definitions:
Quote:
(a) As used in this chapter—
(25)The term “school zone” means—
(A)in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or

(B)within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.

(26)The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.
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Old March 16, 2012, 09:35 PM   #19
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just a thought.I would think if the church is all so a school you would not be able to carry while its a school.( the hours its running as a school )other than that then its a church.

in SC its ok to carry while in the parking lot.as long as you do not have to enter or go into you can carry.if I had to go through a fence like for a football game I cannot carry.but if I could watch the game from outside the fence I would be OK.

there is one school here that can put you into a bit of a pickle.it has a fence around three sides of it.so one has to draw fake lines in front of it from both sides of the building.by doing this you can only carry in the parking lot.I can say that there is another school I can carry all the way around the school.it has no fence what so ever or gate to pass through.

one just has to have a good clear mine to their state laws along with the Federal laws.
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Old March 18, 2012, 12:29 AM   #20
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I guess find a lawyer who knows about these things?

The Federal law in question pretty much bans the possession of guns within 1000 feet of school property, and only makes some limited exceptions for those with permits issued by the state in which the school exists. From what I've read, it doesn't appear to matter if it is a public or private school, or if it is after school hours or school is in session. It may even apply to home schools.

If the church's school is not covered by the Federal law, then you can start being worried about the state's law.
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Old March 20, 2012, 09:27 PM   #21
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The most serious problem with this statute, IMO, is the 1,000 foot restriction. It is much too easy be within a thousand feet of a school and not even know it. If the Supreme Court ever gets around to better defining the standard of review in firearm cases, this specific restriction might just fall.
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Old March 20, 2012, 11:38 PM   #22
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It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
Actually, KyJim, the prosecution would have to demonstrate to a jury that you "knew or had reasonable cause to believe" that you were in a school zone. I'm within a 1,000 feet of a school zone and there is absolutely no way anyone would know that from looking around the neighborhood. I'd think that if the cops nabbed someone in front of my house, it might be a bit tough to get a conviction.
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Old March 21, 2012, 12:41 AM   #23
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In Florida, school property is a no no, even if licensed for CC.

I wish we had the "dropping off/picking up exception, but we don't as far as I know. At my kids schools, there are "no weapons" signs posted at every pedestrian and drive entrance......it's pretty clear here, so I don't do it. I'm sure since they don't let me carry there that there must be a plan to protect me, such as a violence reacting automaton such as from the movie "war of the worlds" that will appear and save the day....

As far as churches, you can carry, no prob....and I do.
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Old March 21, 2012, 05:32 PM   #24
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Actually, KyJim, the prosecution would have to demonstrate to a jury that you "knew or had reasonable cause to believe" that you were in a school zone.
Good point but it doesn't solve the problem of driving on a major road upon which a school sits. I just think it is terribly overbroad.
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