The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 29, 2012, 06:05 PM   #51
ltc444
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 3, 2011
Location: Vernon AZ
Posts: 1,195
Answer is chose the weapon you can hit with when you are under stress.
ltc444 is offline  
Old March 29, 2012, 06:26 PM   #52
SIGSHR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 3,059
In both cases make sure you are completely familiar with whatever you chhose, and make sure they have a smooth action and are 100% reliable.
SIGSHR is offline  
Old April 18, 2012, 09:23 AM   #53
Rivers2k
Member
 
Join Date: May 5, 2010
Posts: 22
You cant beat a shotgun for HD. with that being said I sold mine and kept my lever action.

Reason being my shotgun sat for year and years and never touched. IMHO there is no use for them at the range unless your shooting skeet and a good skeet gun is too long to be an effective HD gun.

My lever gets used at the range and its a great deer gun so I get to have fun with it and have a HD gun. Just some food for thought.
Rivers2k is offline  
Old April 18, 2012, 11:43 AM   #54
jstgsn
Member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2010
Location: Milford, DE
Posts: 29
first thing to do...

Is to take some steps to secure your home so no one can break in with a minimum of noise. Proper locks on the doors and windows, with the strike plates in the door frame firmly attached to the 2X4s in the wall, not just the pine door frame. Proper lighting, motion sensor outdoor lights, indoor lights on timers. House number highly visible from front and back. If someone can sneak in your house and surprise you in bed, you can have a howitzer and it won't help. Read up on home security then have both guns in accessable locations.
jstgsn is offline  
Old April 18, 2012, 02:36 PM   #55
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,214
The question was a simple one, the OP has both guns, and wants to know the better choice between them. Therefore all answers about what to get don't help.

He said no kids, and will not be "house clearing", so both barrel length and concern about others in the house is irrelevant. He does, however have close neighbors, so penetration of walls is an issue.

"The shotgun is easier to hit with" is an old time honored statement. And even slightly true. However, in this case, its not important. With the smallest shot and the most open choke at across the room range, or at most, the length of the house, the pattern isn't going to be significantly larger than your open hand. If you are off target enough to miss with a single bullet, you are off target enough to miss with the bulk of the shot charge at inside the house range. And everyone here says bird shot isn't good for delf defense.

And, they are right, when you are talking about a couple of pellets. But with the mass of the shot still concentrated there is a considerable difference.

Quote:
Momentum is a function of mass and velocity. Shotgun pellets are not a single mass weighing 1.25oz; but a collection of individual pellets weighing less than that (000 weighs about 71gr, #4 buck weighs about 19.5gr). So each individual pellet from a shotgun is going to be both lighter and slower than a 158gr bullet travelling at 1400fps. Shot will also be a lot less aerodynamic meaning that drag will rob them of velocity even more. As a result, a 158gr bullet at 1400fps is always going to have more momentum than any single pellet.
This is true, but again, at across the room range, it DOES NOT MATTER.

Given the situation described, waiting for the cops in your "safe" room, the shotgun is the best choice. Capacity doesn't matter much, as the odds of you shooting your gun dry are slim and none (and slim's out of town). Shortness isn't a big issue, as you are not going to be moving around in the house. Good sights are not an issue, as the range will be very short, and probably not well lit. Hunker down, and if they come through that last door, repel boarders. Your shotgun will do just fine, and due to the sheer mass of the projectiles will have as good (or better) an effect as any thing else you could use.

Slugs are not the best choice as there is about double the energy of the .44mag, and there is still enough left AFTER exiting your attacker to penetrate ordinary sheetrock walls and maybe ones next door as well.

I have one of those sweet little Marlin carbines, and its a great gun in a very good caliber for lots of things. And, if it was the only gun I had for home defense, it would serve quite well, and I would not feel un or underarmed at all. However since you do have a shotgun, I would choose it over the carbine, because of a few distinct advanges at very close range.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old April 18, 2012, 11:48 PM   #56
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
In this video, you see shooters who actually know how to handle a pump shot gun.

Impressive.

http://www.youtube.com/user/tnoutdoors9


Contrast the above with this shooter who, for some reason, decided to make a demonstration video showing us nothing but his inability to really handle the shotgun well--shouldn't knock him, I guess, I started shooting that way, too.

The Wannabe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnHdldmGPII


I'm an 870 man myself, but the Mossberg 590 works just fine. Yes, it takes practice to get the timing right, but the shotgun beats the .357 carbine hands down for those trained to use it properly.

Don't care for a 24# bbl. The 18" bbl. is much easier to use at close quarters. Barrel should be slightly over 18" to keep you out of tbl. with the Feds.

If I was going to use a short bbl. Carbine in .357, I like CorBon's DPX which is mid range between .38 +P and full power .357.

Last edited by Nnobby45; April 19, 2012 at 12:07 AM.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old April 19, 2012, 02:30 AM   #57
Denezin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 209
mossy with bird shot shells. anything within 10 yards (30 ft) is dead at a center of mass shot. i use a h&r pardoner sawn down to 18 and 3/4th inches and a winchester limb saver recoil pad. i use anywhere from winchester 2 3/4 #8 birdshot to remington 3 inch #4 buckshot. birdshot for in home and buck for full wall penetration or door penetration. but if you feel more comfortable with the marlin level id go for comfort.
Denezin is offline  
Old April 19, 2012, 12:33 PM   #58
zxcvbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,149
If you really want to use bird shot, something like high-brass turkey loads will be more reliable. #8 will make a horrific but shallow wound; not sure you can depend on that getting the job done.
__________________
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun"
zxcvbob is offline  
Old April 19, 2012, 01:30 PM   #59
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
I love that Wannabe video !

My favorite line in the whole video is:
Quote:
That wasn't me...
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old April 20, 2012, 01:39 AM   #60
Denezin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 209
zxcvbob while i dont disagree with your statement about number 8 birdshot i will contest that in house most hallways and rooms are no longer than 10 yards. and at 10 yards no choke my #8 is a good enough pattern to be lethal. and the OP stated he lived in a neighborhood with houses 20 yards apart with sheet rook for walls. buckshot could be a problem for penetration of exterior walls into a neighboring house. while i myself live on a farm, no neighbors for me. means i could get away with buck with my house setup. but i dont because its not needed. thats my my thoughts. (btw this isnt to be a jerk this is just my general consensus.)
Denezin is offline  
Old April 20, 2012, 07:31 AM   #61
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,650
Quote:
zxcvbob while i dont disagree with your statement about number 8 birdshot i will contest that in house most hallways and rooms are no longer than 10 yards. and at 10 yards no choke my #8 is a good enough pattern to be lethal.
It isn't the pattern that is the problem. It is the lack of penetration. In bare jello at 10 FEET (not yards), #8 shot typically will not penetrate any deeper than 5" with most of the shot stopping by 3" - and that's jello.

In a real person, with clothes, a sternum, ribs, maybe a little more meat than the typical average male (Americans on average tend to be about 1" thicker than the global average), there are a lot of scenarios where the #8 shot isn't going to penetrate deep enough to force a physiological stop. It goes back to the momentum issue that 44AMP quoted above.

For comparison, less-lethal beanbag rounds are typically just #9 shot in a cloth bag. They use such light shot because it doesn't penetrate. However, both #8 shot and less-lethal can and have killed people, so you don't want to use them unless the situation justifies deadly force - and if the situation justifies deadly force, then #8 is a little light for my liking.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old April 20, 2012, 08:05 AM   #62
TenRing
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2009
Posts: 415
FYI. The shooter in the "wannabe" video was not trying to demonstrate tactical shotgunning. He was just function checking his new 590 Mariner. He loaded three at a time because the public range had a three round rule.
__________________
Gun control...that's when you learn to hit where you aim.
TenRing is offline  
Old April 20, 2012, 02:39 PM   #63
Denezin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 209
Well ill just agree to disagree.
Denezin is offline  
Old April 20, 2012, 03:24 PM   #64
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
Quote:
It isn't the pattern that is the problem. It is the lack of penetration.
I call it the column of lead fallacy. On one side of this fallacy people will argue that smaller shot size doesn't matter - that it's as effective as #00 Buck or a slug because since the shot hasn't patterned out - it acts like a slug.

On the other side of the fallacy people will argue that larger shot size doesn't matter, that since the #1 or #00 pellets haven't spread out enough to make separate holes, the shot is going to act like a slug, and won't have the same effect if the shot pattern had spread out and perforated the assailant multiple times.

Both of these arguments are wrong.

When a load of #1 Buck hits a target, even if the shot has not patterned out yet, the pellets will quickly begin to travel along their own paths - creating 16 distinct wound channels (although some of these wound channels may intersect at some points). The pellets will also penetrate to about the same depth as they would if they were more spread out - which can be tested by firing something like Federal FLITECONTROL® versus something that has no cup or even a spreader wad.

When a load of birdshot hits a target, even if the shot has not patterned out yet, the pellets will quickly lose velocity, penetrate to relatively shallow depths, and will also penetrate to about the same depth as they would if the shot were more spread out.

Pattern does not effect penetration.

Penetration is dependent on the mass of each pellet. A slug will penetrate the most deeply, #00 Buck will penetrate more deeply than #1 Buck which will penetrate more deeply that BB or any bird shot, and it's not dependent of the shot pattern.

This also gets confused with the argument that if you are firing a tight pattern and your shot placement is less than optimal - a tight pattern will be a non-debilitating miss, whereas a wide pattern gives you a better chance of at least one pellet disrupting vital tissue - but that's a separate argument.

Last edited by C0untZer0; April 20, 2012 at 03:35 PM.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old April 20, 2012, 06:07 PM   #65
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
Answer is chose the weapon you can hit with when you are under stress.
Any shooter can shoot well with either weapon he chooses to practice with and become efficient.
So what's the answer.? The shotgun or .357.

Did you think you were going to get away with that cop out answer?
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old April 21, 2012, 02:44 AM   #66
Denezin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 209
Count your right but still at 10 yards your saying birdshot isnt enough to penetrate and kill and intruder? 10 yards in a home is max distance in reality we maybe talking 5 yards realistically. So at 5 yards birdshot wont kill? I dont believe it. But to each their own. I suppose this is the equivalent to 9mm vs 45acp in the shotgun world.
Denezin is offline  
Old April 21, 2012, 07:57 AM   #67
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,650
Quote:
Count your right but still at 10 yards your saying birdshot isnt enough to penetrate and kill and intruder? 10 yards in a home is max distance in reality we maybe talking 5 yards realistically. So at 5 yards birdshot wont kill?
People have survived shots to the upper torso and even the head from 12ga loaded with light birdshot at distances closer than 5yds. Birdshot may penetrate deeply enough to force a physiological stop depending on the scenario; but it is less likely to do so than heavier shot.

As I mentioned earlier, at 10 feet the deepest penetrating #8 shot is around 5", with most stopped by 3" - and that is in bare jello. Are attackers typically naked invertebrates where you live? Will 3-5" make it to their vitals from every conceivable angle? If so, #8 shot may work just fine for you. If on the other hand, they might be homo sapiens, I'm sure some measuring tape can show you how little penetration is left in #8 shot if something like an arm gets in the way.

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; April 21, 2012 at 08:02 AM.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old April 21, 2012, 10:02 AM   #68
zxcvbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,149
Quote:
Count your right but still at 10 yards your saying birdshot isnt enough to penetrate and kill and intruder? 10 yards in a home is max distance in reality we maybe talking 5 yards realistically. So at 5 yards birdshot wont kill? I dont believe it. But to each their own. I suppose this is the equivalent to 9mm vs 45acp in the shotgun world.
Of course it can kill. But that's the wrong question. You should be asking whether a shot to the torso will stop someone *reliably*, not just with a lucky shot. OTOH, if you plan on only shooting them in the eyes, skeet loads will probably do just fine. (I'm not that good a shot, not even at 5 yards)

Quote:
I'm sure some measuring tape can show you how little penetration is left in #8 shot if something like an arm gets in the way.
It still may effect a psychological stop. Imagine how much damage it's going to do to that arm. I still wouldn't want to count on it.
__________________
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun"
zxcvbob is offline  
Old April 21, 2012, 08:44 PM   #69
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
The shot size debate almost makes me want to recommend the .357 Lever-action, because I figure almost any 38 spl or 357 magnum cartridge you just randomly buy from the ammo isle would be better than birdshot, but then I remembered CCI makes snake shot is 38 spl:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/757...shot-box-of-10

Worst of both worlds
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old April 22, 2012, 08:59 PM   #70
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Bird shot will work very well for the tactical situations it's advocates have created in their own heads.

It must, since it seems to have a fair amount of fans.

Add in the real world, reality based tactical problem ivolving Bubba and his friends using your favorite armchair or other furniture, etc. for cover-- that bird shot won't defeat-- then it doesn't compare to 00 buck, which is proven and uncontroversial with re: to it's effectiveness on Bubba the intruder.

Or any other type of feral man.

Never understood those who go to birdshot to reduce the danger to members of their own family (and other innocents) and then try to tell us how lethal it is against an assailant.

Last edited by Nnobby45; April 22, 2012 at 10:55 PM.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old April 22, 2012, 09:44 PM   #71
wun_8_seven
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 17, 2002
Posts: 192
when i was a teenager my next door neighbor shot a guy standing in his driveway (aprox.30 yards)from his front door with #8 birdshot from a 22inch barreled remington special field 1100.and he was drt.
wun_8_seven is offline  
Old April 22, 2012, 10:59 PM   #72
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
when i was a teenager my next door neighbor shot a guy standing in his driveway (aprox.30 yards)from his front door with #8 birdshot from a 22inch barreled remington special field 1100.and he was drt.
Interesting. I've killed many a quail and larger chukar partridge with much larger #6 shot, and found, with regularity, shot that didn't penetrte the 2nd layer of skin.

The same shot will not normally penetrate thru a pheasant, Sage or Blue grouse at 30 yds.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old April 23, 2012, 07:39 AM   #73
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
DRT = Dead Right There ?

A lot of stories about people getting hit with birdshot full-on, from the side and in the back from hunting accidents who not only survived but walked out to get treatment.

I have a friend who took a load of #8 in a hunting accident (ND from a fellow hunter really). He was shot in the lower calf & foot. None of the shot exited out the other side, and it wasn't because it hit bone. None of the shot pnetrated that deeply. I think the deepest pellet went 2 inches, and that pellet is still in there.

Even without the anecdotal stories - it's easy enough to figure out by shooting it into ordnance gelatin.

These results are in gel that really isn't too firm, generally there was deeper penetration in these blocks than normal:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

But even with these blocks, you can see that #8 stops at 4" and it hasn't even hit a rib cage. One pellet makes it a paltry 5"

I would say that the 12ga makes a potent HD weapon, with the caveat that it's loaded with the correct ammo. You can take this very potent home defense weapon and reduce it's effectiveness tremendously by loading it with birdshot.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old April 23, 2012, 08:46 AM   #74
wun_8_seven
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 17, 2002
Posts: 192
yes dead right there, most of the shot hit him in the throat/ upper chest and dropped him where he stood
wun_8_seven is offline  
Old April 23, 2012, 09:19 AM   #75
JerryM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 1999
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,884
for me it is a no-brainer. The shotgun wins by a wide margin.
Jerry
__________________
Ecclesiastes 12:13 *┬ÂLet us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 *For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
JerryM is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13557 seconds with 7 queries