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Old March 11, 2012, 10:11 PM   #76
dacaur
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Quote:
Wait.

You guys recommend equipment with documentation known to be bad for new reloaders?
Yep, which is why we ALSO recommend getting a couple good reloading books. Bad documentation doesnt make a product bad....

Quote:
I figure a lee primer loader is good for about 10 to 20 thousand rounds then it breaks.
A $20 took breaks after 10,000-20,000 uses? Then it MUST be complete crap, in fact, the entire company obviously sucks!!! [/sarcasm] Really? THAT'S your complaint? If a $20 tool breaks over and over, I would buy a different tool.... unless of course I thought that $20 tool was a much better value than the other stuff out there, so was worth buying over and over... hmmmm

Quote:
I don't like Lee reloading stuff too much. I had a shooting buddy that had one of their progressive presses that was problematic. I looked at it and it sure didn't impress me.
I have a buddy at work that has a broken craftsman ratchet, which is why I dont like craftsman much, because his experience didn't impress me... See the problem there? You cant base you opinions of a company on SOMEONE ELSE'S experience with them (and no, taking a look at it doesn't count as your own experience)..... Of course, my own PERSONAL experience with craftsman has been positive, I own many of their tools, and the one ratchet I had that broke was replaced without a problem.... Yep, even "good" brands can break now and then.... I dont buy craftsman because its the highest quality tool out there, I buy it because its generally a good value, quality for the money, thats all that matters to me.
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Old March 11, 2012, 10:58 PM   #77
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I guess I've been married too well or too long. I toss The Blue Press in the trash without opening it.
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Old March 11, 2012, 11:25 PM   #78
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Why are we here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTOne
Yeah, the blonde in the sundress on the last cover just doesn't do it.
I hear you. There was a maker of ultralight (good, quality stuff, too) camping/backpacking gear whose catalog models were nude (not naked, nude, there is a difference for those who care) that for the life of me, whose name I cannot remember.

This is all beside the point. Please, everyone who has something of value, get back on the track of the original thread; encouraging the logical support of proffered opinions and of my agenda, if you please, discouraging the blanket condemnation of entire product lines to the detriment of handloaders seeking good advice on which they can rely.

Is that the primary reason we are here?

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Last edited by Lost Sheep; March 12, 2012 at 08:48 PM.
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Old March 11, 2012, 11:45 PM   #79
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Quote:
Without the cheap, simple, hand loading tools that Lee sold back in the late 60's, I would not have been introduced to hand loading. I wore out several one-at-a-time primer tools with the screw-in shell holders. They were "Junk"...but were cheap to replace and effective.
Quote:
In what way were they "Junk"? I've purchased a few this last year from the Bay and like using them, have yet to have any trouble with any of them. I use them as decated tools for certain calibers that I take to the range and reload there.
There were cast from soft pot metal. The internal cam would become worn-out from rubbing the matching "knee" of the primer punch. I wore out several of those single shots, plus several of the first ones that held a full box of primers. I bought one for small primers and one for large. I still use them upon occasion.

Do not misunderstand me... cheap and affordable is exactly what I needed when I first started out. And Lee collet neck sizing dies are a great product that I still use.

An aside Re: Dillon.
I remember reading a letter to Dillon in the Blue Press some years ago. The writer got on Dillon's case about using scantily clad women to sell his products. "...do you really feel the need to stoop as low to sell more of your products by using partially-naked women in your advertising?..." He replied: "Yes."
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Old March 12, 2012, 03:29 AM   #80
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Old March 12, 2012, 05:08 AM   #81
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LEE Equipment

Way over 50,000 with Lee,
+1 for the company and service
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Old March 12, 2012, 06:05 AM   #82
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"You guys recommend equipment with documentation known to be bad for new reloaders?"

There's a BIG difference between bad and not as good as it should be.

Bad infers outright defective or otherwise unusable.

Lee's documentation is not bad in that sense.

Lee's documentation is not, however, as good as it could be, although I was pleasantly surprised with the documentation that came with my new Classic Cast press.
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Old March 12, 2012, 06:06 AM   #83
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All, the subject of this discussion is Lee reloading tools.

Acceptable adjuncts to the conversation are comparisons of Lee tools with the tools of other reloading manufacturers.

Topics of conversation that are not acceptable include a discussion of the models that Mike Dillon uses in the Blue Press.

Such posts will be deleted.
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Old March 12, 2012, 06:09 AM   #84
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"There were cast from soft pot metal. The internal cam would become worn-out from rubbing the matching "knee" of the primer punch."

I've got at this point probably 20,000 to 25,000 primers through my Lee hand tool.

It's still going strong and showing minimal signs of wear because I keep it lubricated with a super lube.
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Old March 12, 2012, 07:49 AM   #85
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Reminds me of the people selling magic elixirs in the early 1900's.

I remember how the manual for that junk scale went on and on and on about how great and indestructible the beam material was. Big deal. The scale was a frustrating piece of crap that I would be ashamed recommending no matter what the freaking beam was made of.

A **** covered in gold colored paint is still a ****.
Jeez, don't hold back and no sugar coating it here.
I don't know why folks complain about the scale being frustrating to use. I would hope if one could read a micrometer and a vernier caliper they could figure out how to use the Lee scale

III Otto III what if anything did Lee do about the broken parts, cause, replacements?
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Old March 12, 2012, 10:46 AM   #86
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I figure a lee primer loader is good for about 10 to 20 thousand rounds then it breaks.
Guess one of mine is waaaaayy overdue..... and the other is probably nearing imminent destruction!

If they both broke tomorrow, I'd replace them with the new square ones ..... I wonder what they cost now? It's been so long since I bought the one (the other was free)..... gas has tripled in price, trucks have doubled...... betcha it's still 1/2 the price and twice as convenient as the competition ....
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Old March 12, 2012, 10:55 AM   #87
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I had the toggle links break a couple of times on my first Lee press (Challenger?) .... III OTTO III provided pics of one .... Lee repaced them for free, with advice that I keep the bolts keeping them pressed together tight .... I could not seem to do that religiously, and bought another press when they broke again....... I understand they no longer make that model ....

III Otto III- Those all your presses, or do you just collect pix of broken stuff?
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Old March 12, 2012, 11:02 AM   #88
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Can we see some pictures of more expensive broken equipment? As in other brands/broken? Anybody?
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Old March 12, 2012, 11:02 AM   #89
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I have a buddy at work that has a broken craftsman ratchet, which is why I dont like craftsman much, because his experience didn't impress me... See the problem there? You cant base you opinions of a company on SOMEONE ELSE'S experience with them (and no, taking a look at it doesn't count as your own experience)..... Of course, my own PERSONAL experience with craftsman has been positive, I own many of their tools, and the one ratchet I had that broke was replaced without a problem.... Yep, even "good" brands can break now and then.... I dont buy craftsman because its the highest quality tool out there, I buy it because its generally a good value, quality for the money, thats all that matters to me
I have to buy and use to the point of frustration some Lee stuff before I'm allowed to dislike it? I can't look at those pictures and draw a conclusion? Someone other than me owns it so I can't see the shoddy construction? You sir, are a very funny man.

You're right, anyone can make a tool that breaks. The thing is though, that some brands consistently have problems while others may have problems only on rare occasions.

You Lee fanboys sure do get testy fast. Must be that Lee equipment affecting you.
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Old March 12, 2012, 11:56 AM   #90
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Fanboy?

Oh, you could say I'm a fan ....

.... what's not to like about a brand of tools I've loaded thousands and thousands of rounds of ammo with ..... they've been more than helpful when I've called them..... the tools, for the most part, work very well, are economical .... and best of all, start more new reloaders than any other brand.......


I have other brands of tools ..... They all work, some work very well... I must be a Hornady/Redding/RCBS fanboy, too ...... I'm more of a reloading fanboy.... how many of us started with a Lee kit?
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Old March 12, 2012, 02:35 PM   #91
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Nah jimbob, that was to dacaur mostly. Anyone who tries to talk me away from disliking Lee with that much fervor (sp?) has got to be a fanboy. The OP asked for why the disdain and so I told you guys. You can't change my mind on this, its my opinion.

I understand that Lee makes a good press (singular). I understand that many many people are totally satisfied with their Lee equipment and load millions (sic) on them. I have mixed feelings with Lee. I like and use some of their gear and dislike and wont use other of their gear.

So I like upgrade tools. There is more value in good tooling because you only have to buy it once. I'm sorry to hear that your friend broke his 3/8 when he should have used a 1/2" drive. Tales of abused tools mean nothing to me. I've worked with tools and my hands my whole life. Proper tool for the job.

Did you know that RCBS Rockchucker is bottom of the line?! Have you ever seen or used a good press? The RCBS Rockchucker is the value press. It's cast, mass produced. The pickup truck of presses. I have a real press, a Corbin CSP1. There's nothing cast or mass produced about it. Forged and machined steel, all hand-fit I believe. It puts the Rockchucker to shame. The fit, and the strength, and the smooth like glass operation1, absolutely trouble free operation. These are the things that make Lee not worth it, to me. YMMV!

I am not giving advice! This is my opinion!
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Old March 12, 2012, 03:45 PM   #92
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Quote:
"They were cast from soft pot metal. The internal cam would become worn-out from rubbing the matching "knee" of the primer punch."
Quote:
I've got at this point probably 20,000 to 25,000 primers through my Lee hand tool.

It's still going strong and showing minimal signs of wear because I keep it lubricated with a super lube
Remember that the "they" I mentioned were 1960's items...my more recent (but still fairly old), hand primer presses do not show such problems.
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Old March 12, 2012, 07:55 PM   #93
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Lee Load Master

I am new to reloading and I and my friend purchased a Lee Load Master Progressive press. Why you might ask?

I have been reading and asking questions here on the Firing line all winter long befor buying any equipment.

I was hoping to get a dillion but my deal fell through for a used dillion the guy was going to sell me because when I ask for the list of stuff that he claimed he had with it he kept putting it off stating he can't find it or his wife put is some where he can't locate. So I just told him forget it.

So when I looked at all the reloading equipment and read reviews I choose Lee.

One thing is I belive Dillion and Hornady way over engineer there equipment, just for a caliber change on the dillion you needed the tool head, dies and a caliber converion kit this is not to sy that dillion is not a good piece of equipment or for that matter Hornady, it just seems that you shouldn't have to buy all that for a change over.

Lee on the other hand is not over engineered and not overly complicated to set up and get working, yes it my have some idiosyncracies you my have to tap on the primer tray once it gets low but I can put up with that.

What there not made for is to be totally abused never cleaned or maintained in any way and then call it a load of crap. I realisticly dont expect to make 1,000 rounds per hour, if I can get 300-500 per session I will be happy.

Lee suits my needs all though I have there powder scale and I belive that could use some work, on mine the pan keeps falling off.

Its all in the way Lee is precived, and what your needs are. For me the price is right and it works!
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Old March 12, 2012, 08:23 PM   #94
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I've managed to use a little bit from many of the major players in the reloading market , 2 RCBS scales - one beam type , one digital , Hornady powder measure , now a Harrell's Precision , Dillion Square Deal progressive press , Lyman case cleaner and a Wilson case trimmer. Forster , Redding and Dillon die sets to name most.

I even use Lee! The Lee Classic Cast Press is one that I'm sure will outlast me by many years. I could not be more satisfied with this product. After using their Collet die sizer I retired my Forster neck dies. Never had a problem with their priming tool either.
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Old March 12, 2012, 08:43 PM   #95
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A $20 took breaks after 10,000-20,000 uses? Then it MUST be complete crap, in fact, the entire company obviously sucks!!! [/sarcasm] Really? THAT'S your complaint? If a $20 tool breaks over and over, I would buy a different tool.... unless of course I thought that $20 tool was a much better value than the other stuff out there, so was worth buying over and over... hmmmm-dacaur



Hmmmm, indeed. I broke a few Lee priming tools but I learned to keep a spare, they don't cost that much and my latest "new" one sat unopened on the shelf quite some time. Seems I may have finally learned to lube it. My "new" one actually had a price tag, remember them? Think it said $12.95. FWIW my tub of defunct Dillon parts is much bigger than the box of broken Lee Auto Prime parts. That's not really a fair comparison, I had a very early 550 and all the replacement parts were free. The Lee priming tool works better for me than any tool I've tried, wish I could replace my "extra" tool. Guess I need to ship in some broken bits.
As for the instructions being inadequate show me one person who wasn't able to decode them and I bet I can find three who never bothered to read them.
It still bothers me to read where folks claim Lee stuff is cheap. That may lead to a lower opinion of the product. My bench isn't exactly dominated by Lee products but every one is there because it does the job better than anything else I could find, only possible exception is bullet moulds. Some days I like my Lee moulds, some days they don't like me. When we're getting along I generally have lots of pretty bullets to show for it.
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Old March 12, 2012, 09:06 PM   #96
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We had a couple pictures up on another forum where a fellow had broken two Rock Chucker castings in a row. Big guy who admitted to being ham handed. But it can happen to anybody except maybe that Corbon.

Lee did finally come up with a steel yoke to replace the old Challenger casting. Even so, I've got one of those old ones that's still going strong with the original part. Does lots of odd jobs, like decapping and bullet sizing. I don't often size brass on it these days, so it has an easy life, but I did resize some .30-06 on it not too long ago while watching TV (it's on a portable stand) and it worked fine. I have a Lee Classic Cast single-stage press that's on a newer bench I built that has antistatic shielding, isolated power, and other frills, and it winds up doing various things for me ranging from bullet hardness testing to loading my .45-70's (so I don't have to change shell holders on the Co-ax press; I'm lazy).

Mike Irwin is correct about lubricating the Lee Auto Prime tool. I put a little ceramic lube in mine once and haven't had to add lube since, but also no can't find the tube of lube to recommend it. I'm sure warming up the metal and burnishing some Mil-comm 25B in would work well, too, and probably be fairly permanent. Lots of options, though.

The main thing I like about Lee is their ingenuity. They often seem to come up with very clever or simple ideas. The Lee Collet Die and their push-through bullet sizing dies are examples of those two principles. I've deburred my Collet Dies and lapped them and permanently lubed them to make them work more smoothly and give me a little more feel, but that's just about personal preferences. The basic device is very good and leaves necks essentially perfectly straight because there's no expander needed and no donut formed. I use that tool in conjunction with the Redding Body Die to prep cases for prone slow fire and for about anything else I shoot at 600 yards and beyond.

The Lee push-through bullet sizing dies are a convenience. I pop one in the press and quickly run through a tray of bullets when I want to change the size. Easier to set up than changing a die on my lubrisizer.

There are other Lee tools I use. Their 6-cavity bullet molds have done well for me and produced very accurate bullets. I keep one of their hand tools in my range load development kit, along with several of their no-longer-made compact Speed Dies for pistol, their shell holder kits, a Perfect powder measure with second hopper (the measure does better than my portable scale on windy days), and a powder funnel of theirs is in there, too. A Lee trimmer is in the box just because it's lighter than others I own And don't forget the ubiquitous powder scoops. I don't know many people who use them often, but every once in awhile they come in handy for test load fiddling.

I have several sets of dies of theirs, too. I believe they mention they are the only maker honing their rifle sizing dies to final size, so they are very round. What I like about the .223 set I have is that it is on the large size of spec, which prevents extra slop in the old 788 chamber.

Others may have different experiences. I'm torn about whether to wish Lee's finish efforts were better or not. It's easy to say yes, but then we'd have to pay for it. This way I can clean them up and polish them to my own purposes. And if I mess it up, it's not that expensive to replace.

Lee has some quirky stuff. The O-ring lock nuts are an interesting example. They really bug some people and they are less convenient than a cross-bolt locking ring it you want to use the exact same setup over and over without readjustment. On the other hand, if you read through the Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, you'll find intentionally sandwiching an o-ring between the locking ring and press is one method of floating a die slightly to improve self-alignment. You may have to polish the threads some first to make that work to best advantage, but it sometimes can help keep the finished round more straight.

So, life sometimes gives you a choice between good and bad, sometimes between six of one, half dozen of the other, and sometimes it hands you a pleasant surprise for your money. Lee's got some things you don't find elsewhere.
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Old March 12, 2012, 10:28 PM   #97
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I have to buy and use to the point of frustration some Lee stuff before I'm allowed to dislike it? I can't look at those pictures and draw a conclusion? Someone other than me owns it so I can't see the shoddy construction? You sir, are a very funny man.
Not without knowing the story behind it. Loose bolts will cause all of those breaks in the pic's... see your post below

Quote:
I'm sorry to hear that your friend broke his 3/8 when he should have used a 1/2" drive. Tales of abused tools mean nothing to me.
And yet, you can see pics of abused presses and draw a conclusion? You sir, are a very funny man.

Assumptions are why you are a lee hater in the first place, so I guess it shouldn't surprise me.... And yes, without personal experience, thats all you have to go off of, assumptions... Ask me about a product I have never used, and you will receive a "I dont know, never tried one". Anyone that can give a different answer in the same situation isnt worth listening too IMO.
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Old March 12, 2012, 10:32 PM   #98
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The main thing I like about Lee is their ingenuity. They often seem to come up with very clever or simple ideas. The Lee Collet Die and their push-through bullet sizing dies are examples of those two principles.-Unclenick


I call it innovative, Unclenick. Lee Zip Trim, trimming tools, Auto Prime, push-thru sizer, commercial (6 cav) moulds, 20# pots (with and without bottom pour) are just a few items that I can't improve on (for my purposes) at any price. I like Richard Lee's loading manual as well. He's a bit of a promoter but he knows his stuff. First time thru I took issue with some of his instruction but I've come to realize he's generally right. Nice change from the other manuals.
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Old March 12, 2012, 10:42 PM   #99
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Ask me about space shuttles and I'll tell you they're outdated and prone to overheating on re-entry if more than a few ceramic tiles fail to adhere...but I have no firsthand experience. Some failures are simply due to misuse, poor QC or fatigue. As long as I'm not orbiting the Earth I can live with, even expect a few mechanical failures. If machines didn't break down I'd be selling shoes, patrolling the streets or working as a chef to pay for my toys.
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Old March 12, 2012, 11:50 PM   #100
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The fool does not learn from his mistakes.

The wise man does learn from his mistakes.

The truly wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

This is why I like these forums so. We share our wisdom and our folly for the betterment of us all.

The reason I started this thread is so that those posing as wise do not divert those new reloaders wishing to emulate the truly wise from the truth.

I do not (wish to) believe there is any malice in the motives of the mistaken. But it rankles me when prejudice masquerades as prescience or questionable motives turn discernment into dogma. (And I do so love my alliterations).

I will link to this thread whenever I need to debunk folks who bash any maker's equipment without reasoned support.

I thank you all for contributing.

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