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Old March 12, 2012, 11:37 AM   #76
ClydeFrog
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J-6's post; Massad Ayoob, .45acp rounds....

J-6 and any other forum member can accept or believe whatever they choose.
Ayoob was given the "Handgunner of the Year" award by American Handgunner magazine & is widely known as a lethal force instructor/use of force expert.
He's asked by many armed citizens & sworn LE agencies/officers to testify in open court during trials & civil actions.
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Old March 12, 2012, 12:02 PM   #77
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Whats up with all the caliber wars all the time? The 9mm 40 and 45 all work about the same with modern hollow points. If someone prefers a .45 then good for them but why knock other calibers? The .45 is not a death ray. And by the way if your looking into the glock 21 and your concerned about power then look at the glock 20 instead. 15 round mags and the 10mm has more power at 100 yards then the 45 has at the muzzle. THE 10MM ABSOLUTELEY SMOKES THE .45 and it does it in the same size package with more ammo capacity.
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Old March 12, 2012, 12:32 PM   #78
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.45 put people down in both WWI and WWII, it will do the same now. I had a .40s and .45s. I personally like the .45, but as stated before, it doesn't matter as much which you use, as long as you are comfortable with it. The .45 can use a larger bullet, but travels slower than a .40. The recipient will not notice the difference. Many special forces and units of the police (Texas Rangers) use the .45acp. But police use the .40s&w. Either will do if you will. I picked the .45 because I shoot it well, and with a springfield XD or FNP .45, or Glock 21, you get 14+ shots. (13 +1). If I need more than two 13 round mags of .45, I should have brought a rifle.
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Old March 12, 2012, 12:54 PM   #79
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Thank you

Thanks so much for all the input, didn't realize it would start quite a debate
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Old March 12, 2012, 12:56 PM   #80
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I didn't read most of this thread.
I hate the 40. I owned and have fired several firearms chambered in it. I now only own Glocks with 9mm conversion barrels. It is much harder to shoot than 9mm or even 45. It doesn't seem to add that much if you are shooting HPs on unarmored targets. It is much more expensive and less loadings are available.

I qualified with handgun a few weeks ago with guys shooting full size 40s and I had a dinky 9mm. I stomped them, especially on timed courses and double tap courses. There was one course I think I did not score the highest and that was running from cover to cover suppressing as you ran and I hit all the targets and went much faster, but I dropped a few rounds also(I read the course as suppression, so I just went fast).

45 ACP seems to ad a good bit of energy and is not nearly so snappy. I do not have a lot of experience with it though. It is still considerably more expensive than 9mm.
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Old March 12, 2012, 01:19 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by johnwilliamson062 View Post
I didn't read most of this thread.
I hate the 40. I owned and have fired several firearms chambered in it. I now only own Glocks with 9mm conversion barrels. It is much harder to shoot than 9mm or even 45. It doesn't seem to add that much if you are shooting HPs on unarmored targets. It is much more expensive and less loadings are available.

I qualified with handgun a few weeks ago with guys shooting full size 40s and I had a dinky 9mm. I stomped them, especially on timed courses and double tap courses. There was one course I think I did not score the highest and that was running from cover to cover suppressing as you ran and I hit all the targets and went much faster, but I dropped a few rounds also(I read the course as suppression, so I just went fast).

45 ACP seems to ad a good bit of energy and is not nearly so snappy. I do not have a lot of experience with it though. It is still considerably more expensive than 9mm.
It's cool to not like the .40, many don't, but there is a bit of exaggeration in this post. Where I live a box of 100 .40s is about $4 more than a box of 9s. To me that is not "much more expensive".

And the fact that you stomped .40 shooters says more about relative skill level than inherent cartridge qualities. A high-enough skilled .40 shooter would likely defeat you and your 9. Nor is qualification/competition the same as defense. I bet I could smoke that 9 with a .22 LR

Lastly, to me and many others, the recoil is barely distinguishable, let alone "much harder" to shoot.

To each their own, but it doesn't do to exaggerate the weaknesses of the .40, something very commonly done about the 9 as well.
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Old March 12, 2012, 01:26 PM   #82
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a box of 100 .40s is about $4 more than a box of 9s. To me that is not "much more expensive".
That is about right. The 9mm is $9 and the 40 is about $13. $4, but if you look at a box a week that is $200 a year.
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Old March 12, 2012, 01:51 PM   #83
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............and human skin hasn't gotten any thicker in the subsequent 150 years.
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Perhaps not, but on average we certainly HAVE gotten fatter. Sorry I couldn't resist.
Also on that note, medical care has gotten much better: getting shot anywhere by anything 100 years ago was a serious matter, and getting shot in the belly with a .22 was worse for the person involved than being shot in the chest with a .44 ..... peritonitis was almost invariably fatal and a very painful way to die. "Nobody wants to be shot by anything." was much truer 100 years ago than it is today..... today we have gang bangers bragging about how many times they've been shot, and just this week I read about some idjit across the river there in Iowa who paid third parties twice in the last month or so to shoot him, to gain sympathy from his estranged wife .....

Quote:
The 9mm is $9 and the 40 is about $13. $4, but if you look at a box a week that is $200 a year.
+1, John.

That's why I switched to 9mm from .45 ACP ..... I can afford more practice this way.

It's also why I did not go with the .40 or a Glock ..... I handload, and I know a couple of guys that blew up their .40 cal Glocks with handloads..... and I don't know that many guys........
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Old March 12, 2012, 04:10 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by johnwilliamson062 View Post
That is about right. The 9mm is $9 and the 40 is about $13. $4, but if you look at a box a week that is $200 a year.
That's fair, I forget a lot of you are much higher-volume shooters than I can afford to be.

How do costs break down when it comes to reloading?
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Old March 12, 2012, 04:17 PM   #85
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Reloadings cheaper in every caliber i would think. Not sure about 9mm but for 40 and 45 it is. For 45, Box of Berry bullets 35$, brass 18$, powder 20-25$, primers 30$.

Thats 1000 primers, 100 pieces of brass, 250 bullets, and a pound of powder that will last quite a while for pistol. 250rds of Federal champion 17.50x5 87+ without tax. Considering you'll be able to use the brass at least 5 times the only thing you'll be buying steadily is bullets. So in the long run you save money.
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Old March 12, 2012, 04:23 PM   #86
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I don't like the snappiness of the .40.
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Old March 12, 2012, 07:27 PM   #87
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45 acp is my choice for my EDC. But the only time I've had to shoot in self defense, a lowly 32 acp made it a one shot stop.

If I had a choice, I'd choose a 12 gauge.
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Old March 12, 2012, 07:49 PM   #88
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That's fair, I forget a lot of you are much higher-volume shooters than I can afford to be.
Ah, but you can afford to shoot more 9mm than you can .40 ..... High volume shooter don't get to shoot high volume by throwing money away.

Quote:
Reloadings cheaper in every caliber i would think. Not sure about 9mm but for 40 and 45 it is. For 45, Box of Berry bullets 35$, brass 18$, powder 20-25$, primers 30$.

9mm target loads can be loaded for a bit more than 1/2 Wallyworld WWB prices......
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Old March 12, 2012, 08:03 PM   #89
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LockedBreech, your skill level vs caliber point may apply in some cases, but some of us own guns in all three calibers (plus a few others). My skill level doesn't change between a 9mm and a .40, both in Beretta PX4. I am definitely faster with the 9mm than with the .40. You might wish to reconsider your argument, there.

By the way, I'm 6', 205lbs, in good shape, and work out regularly, including resistance training, aikido, and some Japanese (more standing as opposed to Brazilian) jujutsu. The .40 and .45 recoil don't bother me at all, but they do make a difference in shooting times.

Also, $4 more per box may not seem like much, but $13.50 is almost 50% more than $9.50 (which is a price at which I can sometimes find 9mm). So I can get 1000rds of 9mm for $190, or 1000rds of .40 for $270 (This assumes I can find .40 for $13.50). That starts adding up fairly quickly.

Jammer Six, if you're going to accuse Mas of a "false citation," you should probably provide some sort of evidence. I know Mas, and many other members do; he has inherent credibility that you, as an anonymous poster, do not. Please either provide proof, or retract.
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Old March 12, 2012, 09:13 PM   #90
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Okay, I'm working on providing the citation. It may be as long as 48 hours.
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Old March 12, 2012, 09:59 PM   #91
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Practice

Practice equally with each and see. I ended up shooting better with the 45. Some consider the 40 as a "hi-performance" round. It is a snappy little round, and I can't hit anything past 10yds. Even with a heavy pistol. I keep it for my night-stand piece.
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Old March 12, 2012, 10:15 PM   #92
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Thats 1000 primers, 100 pieces of brass, 250 bullets, and a pound of powder that will last quite a while for pistol. 250rds of Federal champion 17.50x5 87+ without tax. Considering you'll be able to use the brass at least 5 times the only thing you'll be buying steadily is bullets. So in the long run you save money.
Not in my case, I am a cheap bastage. The primer is about $.03 and the powder, figuring 8 grains as a round number, about $.03. I cast my own bullets and pick up a bunch of range brass. I don't push my loads so brass lasts a long time.
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Old March 13, 2012, 12:00 AM   #93
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Jimbob & Mleake, I believe you both misread my "high volume shooters" post. I was retracting my argument, exactly BECAUSE for me it's only a $4 difference here and there but for high volume shooters it amounts to more.

Mleake, I've no doubt you're big and strong. I'm 6'5" 250 myself. For me, I just do not see a practical difference in shooting speeds between the two (while I don't have a 9mm, I have access to several). I've no doubt it's there mathematically, but it's scant fractions of a second. I shoot for fun and defense, not competition, and those fractions don't bother me.

Again, that's me. For me. No reason I'd lie about it. Do what makes you happy. For heaven's sake, my next gun is a 9. (Glock G19 or G26)
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Old March 13, 2012, 06:53 PM   #94
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As requested.

Jammer Six, if you're going to accuse Mas of a "false citation," you should probably provide some sort of evidence. I know Mas, and many other members do; he has inherent credibility that you, as an anonymous poster, do not. Please either provide proof, or retract.

Ayoob made the post in question to The High Road.

I've cut great chunks out of it, but if you want to read the whole thing I'm sure you'll find it there. Or I can re-post it in its entirety, but we're already way off-topic for this thread. If we're going to go there, I'd suggest we start a different thread.

Ayoob has been asked many times for valid legal citations, privately, publicly, on the internet and in person. When I became aware of the requests, the number was in the dozens, I'm sure it is now much higher.

He has, in my reading of him, provided exactly one legal citation. After I became aware of this claim and these requests, since the issue made perfect sense to me, I started researching the matter, looking through his writing, watching some (not all) of his videos, looking for any valid legal citation that he had provided.

Now, Ayoob is a cop, not an attorney, but the "legal citations" he believes he provided in his post were not legal citations. While that may seem like nit-picking to you, to anyone who has been trained in how to use the system of legal citations, it's like saying "I want a green car" when what one really needs is an original, lime green 1968 Dodge Charger with a re-built original engine, original chrome and less than 50,000 miles. You use a legal citation when a 1969 Charger won't do, when it has to be a 1968. In legal cases, it's not good to try to substitute one case for another. The "legal citations" he provided in this, his best attempt, consisted of names, not legal citations, with the mesmerizing exception of one.

That one did not lead to the case Ayoob claimed it led to. If I were a charitable man, I would assume that Ayoob doesn't know how to read a legal citation and simply never bothered to follow up his own citation. This is the most charitable assumption.

In either case, the point stands-- Ayoob has never provided a valid legal citation that leads back to the case he claimed. Ever.

Providing a single invalid citation destroyed any credibility he had, in the same way that countless others have managed to destroy their own credibility ever since the invention of citations. What he said then finished the job.

It means Ayoob is not educated in this type of citation, in which case he should have had it written for him. Then, failing to follow up on it demonstrates a rather complete trust in the source of the citation, and a fairly simple view of the concept of citations. As this very conversation shows, reputations hinge on citations. (If one follows that blonde who spat out “citation” after “citation” the other day, thinking that no one would bother to follow them up, one will understand.) Each one of those, as well as the countless requests he has had for valid legal citations over the years, were individual steps away from intellectual credibility and the title “expert”.

(Yes, I can provide more on the generation, purpose and various systems of citations, if you wish. In educated society, no one is above citations. Not even me. Citations are used to determine fact from opinion, and Ayoob's use of the term “net-ninja”, while amusing, demonstrated how unfamiliar he is with the whole concept of citations. He demonstrates, in one “insult”, that we struck nerves, that he cannot afford to be questioned, that he doesn't understand the concept of citations, and that he doesn't know how to support his claims or even how to get support for his claims. In an academic setting, where there is smoke, there is fire. Courtrooms are unique, in that the academic meets the real, and folks like Ayoob and the defendant are caught in the middle. If Ayoob wants to play in that sandbox, street rules don't apply. But this is also off-topic.)

Suffice it to say that when one is asked for a citation, the intellectually honest thing to do is to provide one or state that your claim was opinion. Note that Ayoob's methods (ignoring the request or attempts at insults) as well as retraction are not on that list. (You can never retract a statement, in reality, but there we go again-- way off topic.)

There are other, far less charitable interpretations of Ayoob's actions and reactions.

Therefore, once I became aware that Ayoob had been asked for citations and failed to respond, I elected not to take Ayoob's words without valid citations, the same way you have elected not to take mine.

Because that's consistent with intellectual honesty.

The title of the post was "Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court"

---------------------
As promised, here are the sources for records...



...Those who wish to follow the appellate track of this case will find it in the Atlantic Reporter.

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

Supreme Court of New Jersey
State
v.
Daniel N. Bias
NOS. C-188 SEPT.TERM 1995, 40,813
Oct 03, 1995
Disposition: Cross-pet. Denied.
N.J. 1995.
State v. Bias
142 N>J> 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

This is now absolutely, and I hope finally, refuted.

Respectfully submitted,
Massad Ayoob
---------------------

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 is Baird v American Medical Optics.

It is a case that is about an Ophthalmologist, Dr. Newman, who performed a cataract removal and inserted an American Medical Optics Intraocular lens on and into the left eye of Eleanor Baird on November 8, 1983.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with guns, ammunition, reloading, shooting, a shooting or Ayoob.

Leake, he has credibility with you, if you say so. Perhaps he's a nice guy. Perhaps, as you claim, you know each other. Perhaps he grills a great steak and is great company watching an NFL game. Perhaps he's a good cop.

But in the context of this thread, those are limits, not expertise.

Or perhaps you don't know him as well as you think you know him.

He doesn't have any credibility with me, or with folks who have asked him for legal citations, and when I teach firearms classes, that's what I teach. (Don't worry, he's not alone on that particular list.)

The most telling point here is this: this will never go away.

If I, a small time, no-credibility net ninja, can come up with this, how long will it be before Ayoob needs to start answering questions about it on the stand, as an “expert” witness?

Carry on.

--J6, March 13, 2012
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Old March 13, 2012, 07:13 PM   #95
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Wow, something that's possibly as simple as transposing two numbers on a web forum post, and you're comfortable discounting all of his expertise forevermore? Sounds like you had a bone to pick already and were looking for justification.

Since we all know that the Bias case exists, and you obviously have the ability to look up court documents, did you bother to look up the actual reference number for the case in order to see what Mas got wrong in his post?
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Old March 13, 2012, 07:15 PM   #96
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Walker, Texas Ranger...

To correct a forum post, DPS(Texas Dept of Public Safety) Texas Rangers are now issued SIG P226R .357sig pistols but by SOP can carry nearly any pistol or sidearm they choose on duty.

In the hit CBS TV series; Walker Texas Ranger, actor Chuck Norris(who is also a real sworn LE officer/reserve) packed a few sidearms. A stainless N frame .44magnum, a Taurus 9x19mm, a custom 3rd gen S&W pistol(which I think was either a .40 or 9x19mm).
See www.IMFdb.org .
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Old March 13, 2012, 07:41 PM   #97
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i reload 9mm for about $0.16 a round. Can be done cheaper but I like to load for quality not quantity
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Old March 13, 2012, 08:40 PM   #98
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JammerSix, I will say you have a tendency toward strong opinions and strong claims. I'll look into the case citation when I get some time.
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Old March 13, 2012, 09:06 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer Six
As requested.

Jammer Six, if you're going to accuse Mas of a "false citation," you should probably provide some sort of evidence. I know Mas, and many other members do; he has inherent credibility that you, as an anonymous poster, do not. Please either provide proof, or retract.

Ayoob made the post in question to The High Road. . . . .
The title of the post was "Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court"

---------------------
As promised, here are the sources for records...



...Those who wish to follow the appellate track of this case will find it in the Atlantic Reporter.

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

Supreme Court of New Jersey
State
v.
Daniel N. Bias
NOS. C-188 SEPT.TERM 1995, 40,813
Oct 03, 1995
Disposition: Cross-pet. Denied.
N.J. 1995.
State v. Bias
142 N>J> 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

This is now absolutely, and I hope finally, refuted.

Respectfully submitted,
Massad Ayoob
---------------------

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 is Baird v American Medical Optics. . . . .

If I, a small time, no-credibility net ninja, can come up with this, how long will it be before Ayoob needs to start answering questions about it on the stand, as an “expert” witness?

Carry on.

--J6, March 13, 2012
Sorry, J6, but you are incorrect. I've edited your post for brevity, but the short story is that you misread the citations. See where it says "(Table)?" The citation provided (142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190) refers to a table in the Atlantic Reporter, 2nd series, called the "Supreme Court of New Jersey Table of Petitions for Certification." That table would have been sent to the Atlantic Reporter by the NJ Supreme Court. Approximately forty (40) cases are in that table, including State v. Bias. That's a reference to a 1995 decision in the case, in which the NJ Supreme Court denied a cross-petition without comment.

A quick search on Westlaw (a well-recognized legal database), shows four opinions if you search "Daniel Bias" in NJ. The citations are as follows:
  1. State v. Bias, 152 N.J. 361, 704 A.2d 1297 (1998);
  2. State v. Bias, 142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (1995);
  3. State v. Bias, 142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (1995); and
  4. State v. Bias, 165 N.J. 531, 760 A.2d 784 (2000)

#2 and #3 are the same, but refer to different decisions of the NJ Supreme Court. Since they're in the same table, they get the same citation.

I found Baird v American Medical Optics, but 142 NJ 572, 667 A2d 190 is not the citation for that case. That case went up an down a couple of times, and I saw some citations close to the 704 A2d, but the citation that you've given, 142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190, it not one of them. The most recent citation for Baird is Baird v. Am. Med. Optics, 155 N.J. 54, 713 A.2d 1019 (1998).
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Old March 13, 2012, 09:11 PM   #100
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Uh-oh.

I don't have access to Westlaw anymore, I went through Rutgers. (Which has nothing to do with it.)

You are correct, I didn't recognize the "(Table)" as being part of the citation.

Let me look.
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