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Old March 10, 2012, 11:46 AM   #51
Blackops_2
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Did i ever say as quickly as possible? I said i couldn't empty a mag with my 45 as fast and accurately as i could with our 9mm. In no way does that mean shooting as fast as you can.
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Old March 10, 2012, 11:48 AM   #52
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Did i ever say as quickly as possible? I said i couldn't empty a mag with my 45 as fast an accurately as i could with our 9mm. In no way does that mean shooting as fast as you can.
lol, dude, relax. I wasn't even referring to you. I am talking in general. If I want to reply to someone specific, I use quotes.
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Old March 10, 2012, 11:49 AM   #53
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I just assumed the statement after my post is referring to me considering the topic, lots don't use quotes on this forum. My mistake, been edgy lately not sure why..
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Old March 10, 2012, 12:04 PM   #54
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TunnelRat, I was talking about fast, accurate hits with good shot placement. For you to turn that into shooting as quickly as possible, is to create a straw man.

Meanwhile, you mentioned that your split time differences between 9mm and .45 don't measure in seconds. I never said they did. I said there is a difference. Go to an IDPA match (since IDPA does not use Power Factor) or a GSSF match (ditto); compare the number of serious competitors who use .45 to the number using 9mm. The 9mm numbers far outweigh the .45 numbers. Why? Better scores... usually much better scores.

I'm a good shot with a .45, but I score higher using a 9mm. Accuracy is not the issue, as I tend to get zero to one 1-second penalty per stage, and so far I have not missed (although I took some procedural error hits my first couple times around... didn't know Vickers from Limited Vickers, and I didn't know about the "no loaded magazine can stay on the ground during tactical reload" rule). The score difference for me is all about time, and after three or four stages, the time difference is definitely noticeable.

Going back to the average gunfight involving 2-3 shots... According to Kleck, the average defensive gun use will result in NO shots fired in 90% or more of cases. That will skew the average round count down, a bit. The average felonious assault will probably not require too many shots to subdue the victim; that might skew the numbers down. Against those, now figure out how many shots some of the other cases required, in order to pull the average UP to 2-3 shots.

The extreme I recall reading about was a drugged-up felon in shootout with police, who took 33 or so hits, including some from an AR, who was finally dropped by a 12 gauge.

Most defense trainers teach to shoot until the threat behavior ceases. Most teach that any single handgun round is statistically unlikely to produce a stop. Most teach that shot placement is king, and the ability to score multiple good hits, quickly, is essential.

The .45 is not the Hammer of Thor. Neither is the .40.

I've read at least two accounts of people who survived 5-6 chest hits from .357's. One was a large, obese man, but the other was a reasonably small female. So the .357 is not the Hammer of Thor.
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Old March 10, 2012, 12:12 PM   #55
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Meanwhile, you mentioned that your split time differences between 9mm and .45 don't measure in seconds. I never said they did. I said there is a difference. Go to an IDPA match (since IDPA does not use Power Factor) or a GSSF match (ditto); compare the number of serious competitors who use .45 to the number using 9mm. The 9mm numbers far outweigh the .45 numbers. Why? Better scores... usually much better scores.
Self defense and competition aren't the same thing.

Quote:
The .45 is not the Hammer of Thor. Neither is the .40.

I've read at least two accounts of people who survived 5-6 chest hits from .357's. One was a large, obese man, but the other was a reasonably small female. So the .357 is not the Hammer of Thor.
I don't seem to remember using the Hammer of Thor reference. Nor do I even seem to remember saying that 40 or 45 is more effective than 9.

Also, once again. What I made is a GENERAL STATEMENT. If I am talking to you specifically, I will use quotes, like I did above. My God people get butt hurt quickly.

Last edited by TunnelRat; March 10, 2012 at 12:20 PM.
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Old March 10, 2012, 12:18 PM   #56
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Self defense and competition are not the same thing; FOF training is probably more on point. Then again, it seems to me that speed of first and follow-up shots matter in FOF (and paintball, too), and that when people are launching stinging projectiles one's way, it's not as easy to take slow, aimed shots; speed becomes more important, not less, although missing quickly doesn't accomplish much.

All things being equal, trained shooters are more likely to keep level heads than untrained shooters; or, it might be argued, shooters trained to the point of conditioned reflex are probably more likely to score hits when their brains revert to prehistoric mode under stress.

Training certainly seems to make a difference during aircraft emergencies. I haven't been in a firefight, yet. (Knock on wood, as I prefer it that way.) I have encountered electrical and engine fires, engine failures, propeller malfunctions, ice protection system failures, and a few other oddball scenarios in aircraft, though. Training most definitely makes a difference when stress levels want to go through the roof.

Which goes back again to cost of ammo and shootability of platform affecting frequency and duration of practice...
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Old March 10, 2012, 12:20 PM   #57
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Self defense and competition are not the same thing; FOF training is probably more on point. Then again, it seems to me that speed of first and follow-up shots matter in FOF (and paintball, too), and that when people are launching stinging projectiles one's way, it's not as easy to take slow, aimed shots; speed becomes more important, not less, although missing quickly doesn't accomplish much.

All things being equal, trained shooters are more likely to keep level heads than untrained shooters; or, it might be argued, shooters trained to the point of conditioned reflex are probably more likely to score hits when their brains revert to prehistoric mode under stress.

Training certainly seems to make a difference during aircraft emergencies. I haven't been in a firefight, yet. I have encountered electrical and engine fires, engine failures, propeller malfunctions, ice protection system failures, and a few other oddball scenarios in aircraft, though. Training most definitely makes a difference when stress levels want to go through the roof.

Which goes back again to cost of ammo and shootability of platform affecting frequency and duration of practice...
I don't disagree with any of this. If you're talking to me, I'm not arguing with you.

My point about IDPA not being a real self defense situation is that in IDPA time is part of your score and the difference between first and second place can be tenths of a second. You're not going to get more points in the real world for killing someone in 1.2 seconds as opposed to 1.3 seconds. Now you want to take him/her out before they take you out I know, but the emphasis is slightly different.

I don't care if you use a 9, a 22, or a 500. My point is that I think recovery time is an overplayed argument when it comes to self defense. Train to be competent with your weapon of choice and you'll do okay.
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Old March 10, 2012, 12:21 PM   #58
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Good enough. I probably read too much into your comments on speed.
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Old March 10, 2012, 12:33 PM   #59
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45 or 40?

Between the two? 45. Bigger hole, less pressure, less muzzle blast, recoil pulse easier to control.

Also, it seems alot of PD's are migrating away from the .40 either back to 9mm or 45. Take this with a grain of salt since i'm not leo and dont have links to back this up, but i have read this a few different times in various places.
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Old March 10, 2012, 02:24 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by iamdb View Post

Also, it seems alot of PD's are migrating away from the .40 either back to 9mm or 45. Take this with a grain of salt since i'm not leo and dont have links to back this up, but i have read this a few different times in various places.
While its true many departments are going to 9 or .45, a very large number, probably the majority, are sticking with .40.

My dad was, late grandpa was, and bro is a LEO. I've been to a few functions with large numbers of officers from highway patrols, sheriffs offices, and city departments. Their loyalty to .40 is quite similar to the WW2 or Vietnam veteran loyalty to the .45 1911. They've seen the round strike true and work as advertised in battle. That kind of experience trumps all other arguments, I think. The man whose life is saved by his duty or carry round will likely trust it forever, whether it's a civilian carrying .38 Special Nyclads or a LEO carrying 165-grain Gold Dot. If it saves your life, you probably want it with you forever.
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Old March 10, 2012, 02:45 PM   #61
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Among the major "service" cartridge which include .38 Special +P, 9x19 Parabellum, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP, terminal performance is much more alike than different. With modern JHP ammunition, all of the above cartridge will deliver 300-500 ft. lbs. of kinetic energy at the muzzle, penetrate in the neighborhood of 12-14" in 10% ballistic gelatin, an expand to 0.60-0.75". You really don't get any appreciable difference in the terminal performance of a handgun cartridge unless you go down to one of the small deep concealment/BUG cartridges like .25 and .32 Auto or one of the large magnum cartridges like .41 or .44 Magnum.

The main differences between the "service" cartridges is not their terminal performance, but rather the size and types of guns they're available in and their penetration of certain intermediate barriers, specifically car bodies and auto glass. As such, you should choose whichever cartridge that you can shoot most accurately and quickly and that comes in a handgun most practical for your needs and wants.
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Old March 10, 2012, 03:41 PM   #62
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The FBI "Protocol" tests: T&Es, US police agencies...

I agree & to a point disagree with a few recent posts here, re; .40 vs .45acp.

The "hey, so what" arguement doesn't really hold water with me.
The FBI(DoJ's NIJ or National Institute of Justice) Protocol tests are a useful way to select a round or decide on a handgun caliber.
I'd add that what a LE agency(like the FBI) chooses for duty use may be based on a # of factors(cost, T&Es, ammunition/parts/support, etc).
The large PD(800+ sworn officers) in my area purchased brand new P226R 9x19mm pistols mainly because they didn't want to re-train officers, buy new lots of duty rounds and replace the duty gear/holsters/spare parts.
The LE agency issued & used the SIG Sauer P226 pistols for about 16 years.
For the record, the FBI's elite HRT(hostage rescue team) & SWAT units carry custom 1911a1 single action .45acp sidearms. S-A had the DoJ contract but that might of changed.
I'll close by saying that shot placement & marksmanship is vital when you are selecting a handgun or caliber but power, vel & ballistics should be issues too.
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Old March 10, 2012, 11:32 PM   #63
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Ugh...guys come on! Tomato / Tomatoe...

I use and carry .45 9mm & .40 on a regular basis.

Shot placement is key and your light.

Right now I have a SIG P226 e2 on my 4:00

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Old March 11, 2012, 12:07 AM   #64
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while knockdown power IS a myth and shot placement IS the biggest key to stop someone. could the size diff between a .45 and a 9mm be the determiner of hitting a vital organ or barely missing?

truth is there is so many variables and opinions on this topic. my advice is go get a gun your comfortable with and practice!
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Old March 11, 2012, 09:23 AM   #65
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I like 45's but feel as well protected by a 40
The 40 is not lacking in "power"
I had a Glock 30, still have a 23
Out of the 30, Ranger T 230 gr. JHP averaged 874 fps = 390# KE
Out of the 23, Ranger T 165 gr. JHP averaged 1,125 fps = 464# KE
Calculated (objective) recoil as determined by the power factor (PF) calculation:
230 x 874 / 1,000 = PF 201
165 x 1,125 / 1,000 = PF 186
Subjectively people may think the 40 has more felt recoil or it's snappy (I agree with the snappy) but it doesn't actually produce more, equivalent pistols.

I said I had a 30, it was replaced by a 29.
With Hornady 155 gr. XTP my 29 SF averages 1,278 fps = 562# KE
155 x 1,278 / 1,000 = PF 198
With the 29, I have 31% more KE (power) but no more recoil, compared to the 30.
My unforgiving shot timer helped me determine that the formula for calculated recoil had validity, split times nearly identical.

Like I said, I see the merit in a bigger bullet, but the 40 is surely sufficient and may actually carry more power (KE) than the 45 (load dependent, of course).
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Old March 11, 2012, 09:42 AM   #66
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You cant go wrong with the 40S&W....you mentioned that you cant imagine needing more rounds of ammo,,,,i say the same thing but i like having them if i need them,,,
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Old March 11, 2012, 09:52 AM   #67
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Get a nickle and flip it, About that much difference in 40 and 45 effectiveness.

Round count with the 40 is better. That goes back to having it and not needing it and needing it and not having it.
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Old March 11, 2012, 10:06 AM   #68
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If one can't imagine needing more ammo, listen to presentations by Tom Givens or Jim Higginbotham. While rare, there are quite a few civilian incidents where lots of ammo was a good thing.

Everyone imagines the single mugger be gone incident. Wave the gun and they flee.
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Old March 11, 2012, 03:06 PM   #69
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.40S&W, .41AE, 10mm, .45acp defense calibers...

Don't think I'm knocking the .40S&W. It does have merit & is use with 1000s of US law enforcement agencies & private security services.
I've owned 02 Beretta 96D service pistols(law enforcement surplus).
The .40 round has been around since 1990 and is potent for duty or protection use. I would say it's as good as a few other 10mm/.40 caliber handgun rounds of the early 1990s; .41AE, .40Super, .400Corbon, 10mm, etc.
My point is that of the 2: .45acp or .40S&W, the .45acp is a better pick.
It is slower by vel but it weighs more & creates a wider entry wound channel.

In the early 1990s, author & lethal force expert Massad Ayoob, shot at live(living cattle) in a working slaughter house with a # of common factory made .45acp duty rounds. Most of the 185-230gr bullets did very well but Ayoob stated he'd pack the Speer 200gr JHP(flying ashtray) .45acp in his 1911s & P220s.
I do not own a .45acp pistol at this time, but I'd lean towards the 230gr JHP +P from DoubleTap Ammo, Ranger T, Corbon, or Speer Gold Dot.
I like the 230gr weight because you can fire milspec or practice 230gr FMJs then carry 230gr JHP rounds.

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Old March 11, 2012, 04:42 PM   #70
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Aside from all the purely academic discussions over .051" of bullet diameter, I don't see the real world difference in a 40 and a 45.
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Old March 11, 2012, 05:16 PM   #71
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The amount of practice and comfort level with a pistol is more important than the caliber for self defense.
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Old March 11, 2012, 06:50 PM   #72
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After extensive reading of Ayoob, and after tracking down every "citation" he was willing to give, (he gave a false citation, which destroyed any credibility he had developed) there is no chance that I'll listen to anything that he says or anything that came from him. Someone who gives a false citation, whether by accident or intentionally, is not, by definition, an expert.

My advice (and not just for Ayoob) is to learn how to read all forms of citations, and track every one down.

That is, perhaps, the single most valuable thing I learned when I finally broke down and went back to college.
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Old March 11, 2012, 07:54 PM   #73
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This isn't the OK Corral folks.
NOPE!

These days it is Gun and Run!
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Old March 11, 2012, 08:53 PM   #74
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get a good defensive bullet that opens reliably, retains its mass and shreds up internal organs.
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Old March 12, 2012, 03:07 AM   #75
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I vote for the 21,13 & 1 in the pipe if your not out of trouble by then.
Its to late to practice.
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