30/30 or large caliber handgun for bear defense? - Page 2

lawnboy · March 10, 2012, 02:15 PM

Quote:

When seconds count the handgun will be faster to get into action for most of us but then again a .30-30 carbine is gonna be easier to score with. Personally, I think the OP has put way too much thought into the choice. Just pick one or split the difference and get a .44 lever action.

I framed the question the way I did to avoid some of the pitfalls of previous threads on the topic. I also posted it on a Friday to get max views and responses.

When I first thought about this, given the guns I have, my mind immediately went to my 30-30. But in the Defense against Bears threads on TFL the only time the 30-30 gets mentioned is when someone says something like "bazillions of grizzlies have been killed with a 30-30........" and then go on to say it is sub-optimal, etc.

But to my mind a low-medium rifle should be superior to a heavy handgun in all the things that count here. Except possibly speed. But I'm even up in the air on that. thanks Wyosmith, AK444 and others for the great numbers and other info.

Buzzcook · March 10, 2012, 02:22 PM

Just like to point out that a lot of Alaskans don't carry a firearm while they fish.

BigMikey76 · March 10, 2012, 02:49 PM

Quote:

an ounce of prevention is better than becoming a big pile of bear poop.

absolutely wonderful

Jack O'Conner · March 10, 2012, 02:56 PM

30-30 is a keeper!

Jack

Panfisher · March 10, 2012, 03:18 PM

For me there is no doubt that the .30-30 rifle would be a better choice if I was actually shooting at a bear. I am only a so so pistolero but can easily hold my own with a rifle. The problem is that it probably wouldn't take long for me to get tired of having a rifle slung over my shoulder while I fished, thus it would end up somewhere besides where I needed it. With a pistol I would have it with me at least, maybe I could make a shot with it if needed. Short range, probably standing in water or thick brush, heavy recoilding handgun, bear trying to eat me, me screaming like a girl. Honestly don't know if I could make that pistol shot or not.

Alaska444 · March 10, 2012, 03:47 PM

If I was fishing, I would opt for the .44 magnum definitely over the 30-30. For the degree of discomfort and difficulty with a rifle over the shoulder and fishing, the .44 magnum is the better choice. I would on the other hand have my rifle close by as well and hope to be able to fight my way back to get it. If you are going to bring a rifle to brown bear country, it better be the biggest caliber you can readily shoot with a degree of accomplishment. The 30-30 while good for deer and black bear, ain't my choice for grizzly country. My .444 is at the low end of the scales, but I can handle it well with my medical conditions. That is a choice that works for me, but others might want a bigger cannon. If I didn't have the medical concerns, I would likewise carry a 45-70 loaded to the max.

**Art Eatman** · March 10, 2012, 05:12 PM

The deal is "hits, in a hurry" and stopping a charge. With what can you get the hits the soonest and most often? Will the cartridge's bullet break bones and at least slow down or seriously cripple the bear?

Work from likely scenarios--worst case is probably better--and consider the actual performance to be expected from whatever cartridges might be chosen, and the type of firearm which is likely to be readily available very quickly.

Eppie · March 10, 2012, 05:37 PM

I'd take a Glock. It's light enough to carry and not be a burden. It'll be on my hip when I need it.

Curious bears will run off if you discharge your weapon in the air.

MLeake · March 11, 2012, 12:41 AM

Curious bears might; startled sows who have cubs nearby might not.

Buzzcook · March 11, 2012, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Curious bears will run off if you discharge your weapon in the air.

Not into the air. Lets not have bullets flying who knows where.

Quote:

Rule # 4

Be absolutely sure
of your target, and
what is behind it.

Alaska444 · March 11, 2012, 02:39 AM

Sorry, shooting in the air may startle a bear as the BC photographer, but the gunshot has at times provoked a more intense response as well. Not a good survival strategy in my opinion.

aaalaska · March 11, 2012, 02:41 AM

Seems the OP was asking about a self defense weapon, for hiking ,fishing in Alaska.There have been a lot of opinions rendered and attacked here. But let me point out ,if you drop a bear in D.L.P. in this state,it better be CLOSE or you better be bleeding,Fish & game takes these with a poor attitude, one gentleman that had been torn up told me as they were loading him up for the hospital run an officer leaned over and said ,you could have avoided this, he later retracted the statement after the investigation. And every one of these bear encounters took place with limited visibility , and was always less than 45-50 yrs starting out, often a lot less.Yes there are those that take place at longer ranges but I am talking about the most of them.As was stated there is no perfect weapon for something like that,my answer is always the one you always have on you. Not close but on you, then the one you can get into action the fastest,then practice till you can hit,a half sheet of paper every shot as fast as you can get the gun in action and empty.Might I also suggest picking up a brown bear skull sometime, look at it from all angles, look up into the brain cavity, and try to imagine where one would have to hit to reach into the brain pan.The front and top of a brown bear skull should be the perfect design for the front slope on a battle tank,and a bear that is really coming will be low pretty much straight on ,an unbelievably fast. Thank God I've only been bluffed, but have been part of a group that had to put one down on Kodiak,and have talked to quite a few others that had to do the deed, even spent an evening with group that invited MR Moe, the gentleman that fought one with his buck knife and lived. As for weapon choice I leave that to you to determine which fits you best, given the above. Bullet choice, hard cast lead.One frontal shots with the heavy bone structure ,penetration trumps all else, break things up, reach deep, do as much damage as you can.

Alaska444 · March 11, 2012, 03:05 AM

Great post aaalaska, penetration is absolutely the key. Your points are well taken on the legal risks of DLP as well. Hope to never test this for myself as you stated.

shafter · March 11, 2012, 08:21 AM

I like how the rifle is easier to make hits with but a handgun enables you to make hits with an angry bear sitting on you.

If I was near grizzlies I may deal with the inconvenience of a rifle slung on my shoulder. If not then a handgun would suffice.

sc928porsche · March 11, 2012, 09:21 AM

To accompany you for protection while fishing, I find that the 44 mag will do just fine. Its difficult to fish with a 30-30 slung on one sholder and cast with the other arm. The 30-30 isnt going to do you any good if it is out of reach when you need it.

When it comes to the bruins, the bigger the better. The 500mag is better than the 44 and the 460 WBY is better than the 30-30.

Old Grump · March 11, 2012, 02:49 PM

All comes down to personal preference and comfort factor. I'm a handgun hunter and would be carrying a 44 mag on my person but a rifle close by and if It was grizzly country it would be 12 gauge and slugs not a rifle. If all I had was a 30-30 it would be along, close by and I would not be thinking ballistics but aiming point. The only bear in my credits is a 250 pound black bear taken with a 32 Win special. I was hunting and it wasn't a grizzly but it boosted my confidence in the gun with its near identical ballistics to the 30-30. Go with your comfort zone because there is no single right answer.

Irish B · March 11, 2012, 04:50 PM

In my experience shooting a warning shot scares off woodland bears but doesn't usually work on city bears.

Sarge · March 11, 2012, 05:07 PM

In each case there are two critical components. What you load them with, and how well you shoot them in a hurry.

There is no shortage of heavy cast bullet ammo for revolvers in 44 caliber and up; similar handloads are well established.

Really deep-penetrating loads for the 30-30 however, are pretty scarce. Bullets for handloaders, suitable to this application, are equally rare and load data don't grow on trees. The basic 30-30 has proven adequate under most circumstances.

In either case I load up with the deepest penetrating ammo I could get and practice like my life depended on it.

stevelyn · March 12, 2012, 03:56 AM

The question is is what do think you are most likely to have on you when you might need it?

Keg · March 12, 2012, 04:49 AM

The question is....

Quote:

And lets say that I have to pick either rifle or handgun and not both.

Quote:

If I'm going hiking or fishing in Alaska which do I select as a defense weapon? Why?
__________________

**hogdogs** · March 12, 2012, 05:00 AM

Since I "hand carry" (slings and scopes are hideous, blasphemous abhorrence on a lever gun to me) lever guns and can point shoot with one with a quickness, I feel I could easily bring one to bear (pun not originally planned) faster than a holstered side arm... And follow ups are a natural and still on target (little muzzle rise when forcing the issue) with the .30-30... I am goin' with that gun with your limitations in the OP...

Brent

**Art Eatman** · March 12, 2012, 05:59 AM

The reason I keep hollering "Situational" is that not all that many people go fly-fishing one-handed. Or just use one hand when taking a picture. Seems to me that a fella's gotta figure out what will be handiest, depending on what he's doing out in the boonies.

**hogdogs** · March 12, 2012, 06:07 AM

Art has me there... "mea culpa"

on me for not lookin' past the walkin' the bush part of the outdoorsmanship... And there ain't always a nice rifle leanin' tree/post where you are actively pursuing what ever entertainment or task at hand...

Brent

lawnboy · March 12, 2012, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Seems the OP was asking about a self defense weapon, for hiking ,fishing in Alaska.There have been a lot of opinions rendered and attacked here. But let me point out ,if you drop a bear in D.L.P. in this state,it better be CLOSE or you better be bleeding,

I've heard this from others. They basically described it that you're better off defending your actions in a self defense shooting against a human bad guy than defending yourself in a self defense shooting against a bear.

Quote:

Just like to point out that a lot of Alaskans don't carry a firearm while they fish.

I've found this true too. One of my friends has never bothered with it. The other does. For me it's more psychological than anything. The closest I've ever been to a live brown bear was in a parking lot in Chugach State Park in about 2005. A large bear walked right past my car so close that I could have rolled down my window and touched him. I don't really know how big that one was, but he looked gigantic to me. With dangerous animals of that size around I have a hard time going completely unarmed, but I also have a hard time relying on a handgun. Like I said, it's psychological.

Later that year I was waiting in the drive thru at McDonalds in Anchorage (near the airport) and two moose walked right between my car and the one in line in front of me. Those were gigantic too. I think those startled me more than the bear did. I saw the bear coming. I didn't see the moose until they were RIGHT THERE.

I guess I'll decide which to take when I actually have to decide.

cje1980 · March 13, 2012, 12:47 PM

Wyosmith you seem hung up on penetration. I agreed with you that a HC 44 Magnum load would outpenetrate a 170 gr SP fired from a 30-30.

However, in your first post in this thread you said the 44 Magnum was ballistically superior. That is patently false. Don't try to change what you first said.

I even said that given the choices I would take the 44 Magnum revolver because its adequate for the task and you would be more likely to have on you at the time.

There is a difference between a HC handgun load that punches through an animal and makes a .43 caliber hole and a deep penetrating 30-30 loading that punches a .60 or better caliber hole in an animal. The classic 170 gr 30-30 load is a good penetrator. When you say that there is a difference in killing an animal and killing it fast, the wound channel is everything. Punching a .43 hole clear through an animal will certainly kill it but it might not happen right away. The 30-30 with expanding projectiles is simply going to provide a bigger would channel. Handgun projectiles don't provide much shock to the animal. They pretty much just punch holes in things. A rifle loading going well over 2000 fps is going to expand and cause more trauma than a HC handgun load.

March 10, 2012, 02:56 PM	#29
Jack O'Conner Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2005 Location: Lancaster County, Pennsylvania Posts: 1,320	30-30 is a keeper! Jack __________________ Fire up the grill! Deer hunting IS NOT catch and release.

March 10, 2012, 05:12 PM	#32
Art Eatman Staff Lead Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX, USA Posts: 20,941	The deal is "hits, in a hurry" and stopping a charge. With what can you get the hits the soonest and most often? Will the cartridge's bullet break bones and at least slow down or seriously cripple the bear? Work from likely scenarios--worst case is probably better--and consider the actual performance to be expected from whatever cartridges might be chosen, and the type of firearm which is likely to be readily available very quickly. __________________ You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!

March 10, 2012, 05:37 PM	#33
Eppie Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2010 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 521	I'd take a Glock. It's light enough to carry and not be a burden. It'll be on my hip when I need it. Curious bears will run off if you discharge your weapon in the air. __________________ Experience is a very bad teacher because it first gives you the test and then teaches you the lesson.

March 11, 2012, 09:21 AM	#40
sc928porsche Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Location: now living in alabama Posts: 2,325	To accompany you for protection while fishing, I find that the 44 mag will do just fine. Its difficult to fish with a 30-30 slung on one sholder and cast with the other arm. The 30-30 isnt going to do you any good if it is out of reach when you need it. When it comes to the bruins, the bigger the better. The 500mag is better than the 44 and the 460 WBY is better than the 30-30. __________________ No such thing as a stupid question. What is stupid is not asking it.

March 11, 2012, 02:49 PM	#41
Old Grump Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in a little hut in the woods Posts: 3,126	All comes down to personal preference and comfort factor. I'm a handgun hunter and would be carrying a 44 mag on my person but a rifle close by and if It was grizzly country it would be 12 gauge and slugs not a rifle. If all I had was a 30-30 it would be along, close by and I would not be thinking ballistics but aiming point. The only bear in my credits is a 250 pound black bear taken with a 32 Win special. I was hunting and it wasn't a grizzly but it boosted my confidence in the gun with its near identical ballistics to the 30-30. Go with your comfort zone because there is no single right answer. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

March 10, 2012, 02:22 PM	#27
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 5,199	Just like to point out that a lot of Alaskans don't carry a firearm while they fish.

March 10, 2012, 03:18 PM	#30
Panfisher Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 217	For me there is no doubt that the .30-30 rifle would be a better choice if I was actually shooting at a bear. I am only a so so pistolero but can easily hold my own with a rifle. The problem is that it probably wouldn't take long for me to get tired of having a rifle slung over my shoulder while I fished, thus it would end up somewhere besides where I needed it. With a pistol I would have it with me at least, maybe I could make a shot with it if needed. Short range, probably standing in water or thick brush, heavy recoilding handgun, bear trying to eat me, me screaming like a girl. Honestly don't know if I could make that pistol shot or not.

March 10, 2012, 03:47 PM	#31
Alaska444 Junior member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Posts: 1,231	If I was fishing, I would opt for the .44 magnum definitely over the 30-30. For the degree of discomfort and difficulty with a rifle over the shoulder and fishing, the .44 magnum is the better choice. I would on the other hand have my rifle close by as well and hope to be able to fight my way back to get it. If you are going to bring a rifle to brown bear country, it better be the biggest caliber you can readily shoot with a degree of accomplishment. The 30-30 while good for deer and black bear, ain't my choice for grizzly country. My .444 is at the low end of the scales, but I can handle it well with my medical conditions. That is a choice that works for me, but others might want a bigger cannon. If I didn't have the medical concerns, I would likewise carry a 45-70 loaded to the max.

March 11, 2012, 12:41 AM	#34
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 9,664	Curious bears might; startled sows who have cubs nearby might not.

March 11, 2012, 02:39 AM	#36
Alaska444 Junior member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Posts: 1,231	Sorry, shooting in the air may startle a bear as the BC photographer, but the gunshot has at times provoked a more intense response as well. Not a good survival strategy in my opinion.

March 11, 2012, 02:41 AM	#37
aaalaska Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2007 Location: Palmer Ak Posts: 319	Seems the OP was asking about a self defense weapon, for hiking ,fishing in Alaska.There have been a lot of opinions rendered and attacked here. But let me point out ,if you drop a bear in D.L.P. in this state,it better be CLOSE or you better be bleeding,Fish & game takes these with a poor attitude, one gentleman that had been torn up told me as they were loading him up for the hospital run an officer leaned over and said ,you could have avoided this, he later retracted the statement after the investigation. And every one of these bear encounters took place with limited visibility , and was always less than 45-50 yrs starting out, often a lot less.Yes there are those that take place at longer ranges but I am talking about the most of them.As was stated there is no perfect weapon for something like that,my answer is always the one you always have on you. Not close but on you, then the one you can get into action the fastest,then practice till you can hit,a half sheet of paper every shot as fast as you can get the gun in action and empty.Might I also suggest picking up a brown bear skull sometime, look at it from all angles, look up into the brain cavity, and try to imagine where one would have to hit to reach into the brain pan.The front and top of a brown bear skull should be the perfect design for the front slope on a battle tank,and a bear that is really coming will be low pretty much straight on ,an unbelievably fast. Thank God I've only been bluffed, but have been part of a group that had to put one down on Kodiak,and have talked to quite a few others that had to do the deed, even spent an evening with group that invited MR Moe, the gentleman that fought one with his buck knife and lived. As for weapon choice I leave that to you to determine which fits you best, given the above. Bullet choice, hard cast lead.One frontal shots with the heavy bone structure ,penetration trumps all else, break things up, reach deep, do as much damage as you can.

March 11, 2012, 03:05 AM	#38
Alaska444 Junior member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Posts: 1,231	Great post aaalaska, penetration is absolutely the key. Your points are well taken on the legal risks of DLP as well. Hope to never test this for myself as you stated.

March 11, 2012, 08:21 AM	#39
shafter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2009 Posts: 1,033	I like how the rifle is easier to make hits with but a handgun enables you to make hits with an angry bear sitting on you. If I was near grizzlies I may deal with the inconvenience of a rifle slung on my shoulder. If not then a handgun would suffice.

March 11, 2012, 04:50 PM	#42
Irish B Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Location: Colorado Posts: 359	In my experience shooting a warning shot scares off woodland bears but doesn't usually work on city bears. __________________ If a man hasn't found something worth dying for, he isn't fit to live

March 11, 2012, 05:07 PM	#43
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 4,351	In each case there are two critical components. What you load them with, and how well you shoot them in a hurry. There is no shortage of heavy cast bullet ammo for revolvers in 44 caliber and up; similar handloads are well established. Really deep-penetrating loads for the 30-30 however, are pretty scarce. Bullets for handloaders, suitable to this application, are equally rare and load data don't grow on trees. The basic 30-30 has proven adequate under most circumstances. In either case I load up with the deepest penetrating ammo I could get and practice like my life depended on it. __________________ Visit us at The Sixgun Journal or the archive, at http://sargesrollcall.blogspot.com/

March 12, 2012, 03:56 AM	#44
stevelyn Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: Fairbanksan in exile to Aleutian Hell Posts: 2,560	The question is is what do think you are most likely to have on you when you might need it? __________________ Herman Cain '12 Squished bugs on a windshield is proof the slow/heavy bullet theory works.

March 12, 2012, 05:00 AM	#46
hogdogs Staff Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 10,691	Since I "hand carry" (slings and scopes are hideous, blasphemous abhorrence on a lever gun to me) lever guns and can point shoot with one with a quickness, I feel I could easily bring one to bear (pun not originally planned) faster than a holstered side arm... And follow ups are a natural and still on target (little muzzle rise when forcing the issue) with the .30-30... I am goin' with that gun with your limitations in the OP... Brent __________________ Finally have designs going up in the Hogdogs Outdoor Apparel online store. http://www.cafepress.com/hogdogsoutdoorapparel Thanks for lookin'...

March 12, 2012, 05:59 AM	#47
Art Eatman Staff Lead Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX, USA Posts: 20,941	The reason I keep hollering "Situational" is that not all that many people go fly-fishing one-handed. Or just use one hand when taking a picture. Seems to me that a fella's gotta figure out what will be handiest, depending on what he's doing out in the boonies. __________________ You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!

March 12, 2012, 06:07 AM	#48
hogdogs Staff Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 10,691	Art has me there... "mea culpa" on me for not lookin' past the walkin' the bush part of the outdoorsmanship... And there ain't always a nice rifle leanin' tree/post where you are actively pursuing what ever entertainment or task at hand... Brent __________________ Finally have designs going up in the Hogdogs Outdoor Apparel online store. http://www.cafepress.com/hogdogsoutdoorapparel Thanks for lookin'...

March 13, 2012, 12:47 PM	#50
cje1980 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,384	Wyosmith you seem hung up on penetration. I agreed with you that a HC 44 Magnum load would outpenetrate a 170 gr SP fired from a 30-30. However, in your first post in this thread you said the 44 Magnum was ballistically superior. That is patently false. Don't try to change what you first said. I even said that given the choices I would take the 44 Magnum revolver because its adequate for the task and you would be more likely to have on you at the time. There is a difference between a HC handgun load that punches through an animal and makes a .43 caliber hole and a deep penetrating 30-30 loading that punches a .60 or better caliber hole in an animal. The classic 170 gr 30-30 load is a good penetrator. When you say that there is a difference in killing an animal and killing it fast, the wound channel is everything. Punching a .43 hole clear through an animal will certainly kill it but it might not happen right away. The 30-30 with expanding projectiles is simply going to provide a bigger would channel. Handgun projectiles don't provide much shock to the animal. They pretty much just punch holes in things. A rifle loading going well over 2000 fps is going to expand and cause more trauma than a HC handgun load.