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Old March 13, 2012, 12:08 PM   #51
MLeake
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To add to that thought, stashing guns around the house means leaving weapons around that could be found and used against you by an intruder; stolen by a thief; or, God forbid, found by a kid and used to injure or kill a child (the finder or a friend).

The gun on my person is not only handy for me, but it's not easily available to another.
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Old March 13, 2012, 12:21 PM   #52
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^ I agree stashing guns all over is a bad idea, but I think having a gun bedside and a gun in your closet (not accesable to children) is not a bad idea.

I think it may be that some people do this anyway, they may keep a handgun by the bed and a long gun in the closet.
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Old March 13, 2012, 12:39 PM   #53
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Quote:
Posted by MLeake: To add to that thought, stashing guns around the house means leaving weapons around that could be found and used against you by an intruder; stolen by a thief; or, God forbid, found by a kid and used to injure or kill a child (the finder or a friend).

The gun on my person is not only handy for me, but it's not easily available to another.
All very true, and considered in my decision process.

Quote:
Posted by C0untZer0: I think having a gun bedside and a gun in your closet (not accesable to children) is not a bad idea.

I think it may be that some people do this anyway, they may keep a handgun by the bed and a long gun in the closet.
What is embarrassing to me is that I relied exclusively upon that approach from 1967 (and earlier, during periods in which I was home from college) through 2008, until it finally dawned on me that the firearms would only be useful if an intrusion occurred while I was in or near the bedroom.

Most of the burglaries in our area (and perhaps, most everywhere) occur during the daytime. The majority have involved rear entrances or side windows.

All four that I have experienced did occur after dark. One, which involved a third floor fire escape, happened just after my wife had driven away. In the other three, the invaders knew or should have known that the residences were occupied; of those, two were violent. In none of those did firing become necessary.
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Old March 13, 2012, 12:53 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by MLeake
...stashing guns around the house means leaving weapons around that could be found and used against you by an intruder; stolen by a thief; or, God forbid, found by a kid and used to injure or kill a child...
Our solution to that issue is to use a number of lock-boxes. Theses are stashed around the house -- hidden but readily accessible. Only my wife an I have the combinations, and each contains a loaded gun, extra ammunition and a Surefire flashlight.

Wherever we are in the house we're only several steps away from a readily accessible, but secure, gun.
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Old March 13, 2012, 02:24 PM   #55
Darren Roberts
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Locked boxes, great for storage, but do you think in reality you can get to unlock and prepare the firearm for firing in any reasonable time in a home invasion situation? Locked boxes, gun safes, etc...are for keeping your guns away from children or thieves. A locked up gun is useless in a home invasion...unless you take the reports suggestion and get to a safe place.

I think almost everyone is reading way to much into these reports.
Obviously what happens and individual reactions are going to depend on the specific scenario. Anyone who gets on here and says..."I will do this" or "I will not do this"...is foolish. You may sit here in front of your computer and tout your defensive genious and go on about how you'll double tap or triple tap the invader..but what situations have you been in to measure your abilities to
1. Recognize a threat
2. React to the threat
3. Fire accurate rounds at a target
And lets not forget the largest factor in the scenario...THERE IS A BAD GUY COMING AFTER YOU!!
Its amazing how many people get a gun and think they are John Wayne. Good way to get yourself or your family killed.

The reports gave great general advise for the general public. Evade...get away...RUN!!! Anything else is putting yourself and possibly your family at risk.

If you can not get away, then by all means defend youself how you can with what you can.
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Old March 13, 2012, 02:47 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Darren Roberts
Locked boxes, great for storage, but do you think in reality you can get to unlock and prepare the firearm for firing in any reasonable time...
The Lock-boxes we use have a touch-key combination and can be opened without looking in less than one second -- and yes, we practice. The guns require no preparation for firing. They are loaded and ready.
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Old March 13, 2012, 04:48 PM   #57
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I just remebered the case of Hale DeMar - his defense of his home is responsible for the Hale DeMar law in Illinois which precluded towns like Chicago, Wilmette and others from punishing a person with municipal ordinances:

http://reason.com/archives/2005/06/0...n-b/singlepage

One of the things that the Wilmette Chief of Police said is that DeMar should have stayed upstairs with his son and his 8-year-old daughter, Madeline, instead of seeking a confrontation.
Quote:
Our culture seems to define the family protector's role as seeking out the enemy, or the intruder," he says. "What we tell people is: You're the last line of defense. Don't leave your family
.

DeMar explains his actions this way:
Quote:
"I suppose some would have grabbed their children and cowered in their bedroom...praying that the police would get there in time to stop the criminal from climbing the stairs and confronting the family in a bedroom, trembling, dreading the sound of the door being kicked in. That's not the fear I wanted my children to experience, and it is not the cowardly act that I want my children to remember me by."

^ not necesarily good tactics but a pretty cool quote.
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Old March 13, 2012, 05:26 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C0untZer0
Quote:
"I suppose some would have grabbed their children and cowered in their bedroom...praying that the police would get there in time to stop the criminal from climbing the stairs and confronting the family in a bedroom, trembling, dreading the sound of the door being kicked in. That's not the fear I wanted my children to experience, and it is not the cowardly act that I want my children to remember me by."
^ not necesarily good tactics but a pretty cool quote.
Or someone might withdraw with his family to a defensible positions and wait, armed, prepared and ready to engage, if the intruder is unwise enough to enter.

Assuming that the defender, having taken a defensible position, will be waiting trembling with fear is completely unwarranted.
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Old March 13, 2012, 08:27 PM   #59
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fiddletown, while I agree with you in principle, I do have to point out that kids might not be able to tell the difference between trembling in fear, and trembling due to an adrenaline overload from the fight or flight response.

I also have to point out that courage isn't an absence of fear, it's doing what needs to be done even when one is terrified.
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Old March 13, 2012, 08:50 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by MLeake
fiddletown, while I agree with you in principle, I do have to point out that kids might not be able to tell the difference between trembling in fear, and trembling due to an adrenaline overload from the fight or flight response.

I also have to point out that courage isn't an absence of fear, it's doing what needs to be done even when one is terrified.
That's all true.

But the points we all need to keep in mind are (1) doing what is tactically appropriate is not a display of cowardice; and (2) the mission is to secure the safety of one's family, not make a grand gesture.
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Old March 14, 2012, 04:00 AM   #61
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Like I said, I agree with you in principle, and on tactics. Perhaps I am nitpicking, although I don't think I am.

But the kids might still think Daddy is trembling in fear. Doesn't mean Daddy has done anything wrong.

I just think people should realize that when things happen, the body tends to have predictable autonomic responses, and trembling from an overload of adrenaline is one of them.
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Old March 14, 2012, 04:16 AM   #62
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They can die in terror cowered in their bedrooms. Wether I have a Louisville Slugger, or an 870 with slugs, someone is going down if they break into my house...


Also I think its funny that anti-gun types dont consider a baseball bat a deadly weapon.
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Old March 14, 2012, 05:55 PM   #63
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Quote:
I had been reading a couple of discussions here. One was about stashing firearms in more than one location. The other was about carrying at home. At first thought, the latter idea seemed preposterous
It seems that those of us that have been carrying at home all along, are being called paranoid by fewer and fewer each year.
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Old March 14, 2012, 06:02 PM   #64
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^^^
Serious. I've been noticing that too.
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Old March 15, 2012, 10:03 AM   #65
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I have Louisville slugger. I remember an NTI where someone charged me with a bat in a scenario. Three shots from a pocket draw (fast than I thought I could) - one in each hand (the bat was in front of his chest) - one right in center mass.

This is getting silly. Put a reasonable gun on you if you are worried about instant response. Cover and concealment and shoot if it makes sense. If you have time, get to the safe room with the others and get ready, trigger the alarms, call the law. Order a pizza - whatever.

Or charge an invasion with a mug, yelling dirty words.
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Old March 16, 2012, 12:54 PM   #66
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the saying of locking the door is kind of silly. i can punch thru sheetrock to reach in and unlock the door just as easy as i could kick the door open.

its because everyone always stress a strong door that made me put stainless steel sheet metal in the walls surrounding the door so that it would provide extra security.
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Old March 18, 2012, 01:08 AM   #67
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If woken from a sound sleep by someone being in my house up to no good, I'd make sure family members are accounted for and hunker down. Clearing a house is extremely difficult under ideal situations and having just woken up doesn't help.
Wrongo Donko
My house is easy to clear under any situation.Everyone except me seems to have cavernous homes. And they all seem to be hard to clear.
Of course in my case my dogs make it easy to locate intruders. The screams of agony from the BG helps find them.
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Old March 18, 2012, 07:41 AM   #68
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My house is easy to clear under any situation.
Is there something unusual about your house that makes it difficult for one or more invaders to shoot you?
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Old March 18, 2012, 08:38 AM   #69
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I wouldn't mistake having dogs who will track down and attack an intruder for having a structure that is inherently easy to "clear".

The adavantage that you have in taking up a well thought out defensive position (not the simplistic 'lock the door and dial 911'), is precisely the advantage you give up when you go on the move.

Having legitimate gaurd dogs changes the scenario. I say legitimate because there was the case earlier this year in Texas where a family had a mastiff, and that dog proved to be completely useless when burglars broke into the home:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...&highlight=son

The ABC report doesn't address this, and I agree with those who say that their report by it's nature could not be comprehensive and cover every senario. But the de facto tactic of "lock the door dial 911" leaves your animal out there to fend for itself.

I know dogs can be a very versatile and highly effecive part of home defense. I guess there could be scenarios where your dog was with you and didn't engage the invaders when they first entered - like if the dog was in the bedroom with a closed door.

I don't think I could just unleashe a dog and then let it fend for itself against the against the bad guys, especially if it was being attacked.

Last edited by C0untZer0; March 18, 2012 at 08:43 AM.
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Old March 18, 2012, 10:14 AM   #70
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Having had at least some formal training in clearing a building, I'd prefer not to try the real thing if I could find a good defensive position. The only way I'd do it is if I had family or friends in other parts of the house.

The old rule of thumb for attacking a defended position was that the attackers needed at least a 3:1 numerical advantage. There's a reason for that.

Some folks seem to think machismo will replace or overcome good tactics. I think they are in for a nasty surprise.
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Old March 18, 2012, 01:39 PM   #71
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Quote:
MarkDozier

Quote:
Quote:
If woken from a sound sleep by someone being in my house up to no good, I'd make sure family members are accounted for and hunker down. Clearing a house is extremely difficult under ideal situations and having just woken up doesn't help.
Wrongo Donko
My house is easy to clear under any situation.Everyone except me seems to have cavernous homes. And they all seem to be hard to clear.
Of course in my case my dogs make it easy to locate intruders. The screams of agony from the BG helps find them.
Have you ever cleared a house or building in real life or in formal training?
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Old March 18, 2012, 03:14 PM   #72
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Don't believe any of these network executives. They own firearms. They just don't admit it.
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Old March 18, 2012, 03:22 PM   #73
sm
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Just me mind you...

Consider the source. Last I heard ABC was part of MSM, which does not carry a lot of weight with me personally.

Tactics and Training or Strategy & Tactics to me is training the brain first and then getting skill sets to use whatever tool sets are afforded them. The reality is we have members, whether here in the USA, or abroad whom are denied "rights"

So for me, another thing is knowing the laws of one's jurisdiction. Yes, I for decades have recommended one actually go to the Courtroom to actually see what goes on. Too many folks here in the USA think a "jury of one's peers" means a dozen folks just like them. It ain't so.
One also learns what crimes are done, how played out and how "that" jurisdiction actually deals with cases.
Gets back to training the brain, and educating the brain if you will...

I mean it is nice to know how your jurisdiction "interprets" and "defines" the law.

Now I gots my druthers as to how the COTUS is interpreted and what it means for me, still the reality is, not everyone, nor every place feels the same as I. So I best know, what is what.

Maybe I am old school, or just getting old, still preventive measures to avoid situations is best. Evade if need be is another one. Then again if'n I gots to stop a threat I am best off knowing what is "legal" and staying within the legal areas.
Using of course mindset, skill sets and tool sets I have trained not only my brain, also my physical being with.

Just me, probably wrong, still I run with this tactic and training as come up with.

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Old March 20, 2012, 01:33 PM   #74
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Something I didn't see in this thread that needs to be said I think, the police are under no obligation to protect you, so calling 911 may get any BGs that are running away from your house caught, I wouldn't count on anything like that to keep my family, myself and my stuff safe.
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Old March 21, 2012, 12:51 AM   #75
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I would venture to say that 95% of the people who have called 911 had no idea how long it would take the police to arrive before they actually experienced it.

There is the story of the boy in Texas - whose mom put him in the closet while a group of robbers were breaking into their home, and he repeatedly dialed 911 and kept getting disconnected.

I don't know what the average response time in Chicago is but in Detroit it is abysmal.

I once called 911 at 11:30 at night... I was driving behind a navy blue Camero in the pouring rain.. and the woman was driving with no lights - no headlights, no running lights, no brake lights, nothing, and she was basically invisible. I was waiting for her to kill someone. I actually called ahead to the next town we were going to be traveling through in 10 minutes. We cruised right through that town, and no police responded. I called the next town with a 15 minute lead time, and the next. I called the next three townships and the county Sheriff... 45 minutes of driving with no squad car ever responding. She finally pulled into a subdivision and I thought she'd probably gotten home... and I hoped she was done driving for the night.

I think ABC's general advice in this piece is really cruddy advice and their assumptions about how quickly police respond is another one of those dangerous assumptions.
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