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Old March 8, 2012, 03:52 PM   #26
rburch
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It's ABC.

Does anybody here really expect them to advocate using a Gun to defend yourself?

Weren't they the ones that set up that impossible situation to "prove" that CCW couldn't stop a school shooting? Or was that NBC?

Sadly mainstream media has an agenda when it comes to guns, and that means the odds of gun ownership getting a fair story is slim to none.

As for the tactics, find a good choke point that's defensible and defend it. If you can then by all means call 911, but don't depend on that to save you.
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Old March 8, 2012, 04:55 PM   #27
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I don't think anybody here is advocating that you bend over and touch your toes if there's an intrusion. You should arm yourself and, if circumstances permit, gather the family. Only then do you hunker down, call 911, and blast the hell out of the BG if he comes into the room where you are. Leave the "room clearing" to the professionals unless there is no other choice.
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Old March 8, 2012, 05:20 PM   #28
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Well after we had the school lockdown due to a 911 call of a suspicious person report then reading the guy was breaking into properties 1 mile from our place. Wife asked for a pistol to be in close proximity to where she sleeps as she works nights. Now she is adamant about getting the permit and her own gun. She does know how to shoot and such. Burglers are getting bolder as 2 or 3 folks actually saw him walking away with their stuff in hand.

Dog in the house, locked doors etc.
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Old March 8, 2012, 06:06 PM   #29
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Posted by Onward Allusion: If the BGs are already in and there are other family members in the house, there's no way I'd get separated from them.
I believe that the overwhelming consensus of expert opinion is to get family members to safety, whether or not the bad guys are already in.

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As for hiding behind a locked door while someone is trying to break in, that is utterly ridiculous if you're armed or have access to a firearm.
Why's that?

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It takes a few seconds to break down a door.
Well, yeah, and should someone do that, it would provide incontrovertible evidence against any possible indications that might otherwise rebut an assumption that the use of deadly force was immediately necessary.

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In my case enough time for me to draw and stop the threat as they're coming through the door or before - YES before.
I cannot imagine any reason for anyone in his right mind to shoot through a closed door. First, there is always the risk, however small, of shooting someone that someone does no want to shoot. Second, it is awfully hard to shoot to center mass when the target is completely hidden behind, or is only partially behind, a door.

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Yes, I carry at home. I pretty much carry at all waking hours.
Good idea. Too many people base their preparations on the assumption that an invasion will occur while they are in the bedroom or otherwise able to access their defensive firearms before being cut off from them or otherwise engaged by one or more violent criminal actors.

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If woken from a sound sleep by someone being in my house up to no good, I'd make sure family members are accounted for and hunker down.
Personally, I believe that is the best strategy to dal with a criminal invasion at any time of day.

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Clearing a house is extremely difficult under ideal situations and having just woken up doesn't help.
i would imagine that that is one of the reasons for the advice given by the unnamed experts to the ABC reporters.
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Old March 8, 2012, 06:06 PM   #30
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I wrote:
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Why do they avoid any advice on anything but running away?
Oldmarksman answered:

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They did not. They advised locking the door and calling 911--and that's the best simple advice to give. To talk about a parent rounding up the children first, for example, would be far too complicated for a short news blurb.
It's a matter of interpretation. I include the locking the door part as "running away". It certainly has its place. If it's all you have you should try to do better.

I think calling 911 is a fine idea, if it doesn't get in the way of actually defending yourself. If it is a choice for me to make the call or go get my gun I'm going to get the gun. If I can do both so much the better.

I wrote:
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Since advice about actual weapons was left out of the ABC "informative" piece I'm forced to include that such an omission in a piece ABOUT SURVIVING AN ATTACK means that ABC is of the opinion that defending yourself with weapons against attack isn't a good idea.
Oldmarksman wrote:
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I draw no such conclusion. I detected no hint of an opinion that the several defensive shootings mentioned in the piece were not "good shoots", to use the vernacular
You are less cynical than me. I did detect such an opinion. In organizations or people who have displayed anti-gun and anti 2A opinion in the past I always assume nefarious intent until they show me otherwise. I think I'm on fairly safe ground with my assumptions considering we're talking about ABC and George Stepanopolous (Stephanopolous is a big shot. Big shots on camera have a great degree of editorial control).

It is my unscientific but considered opinion that stories, news reports and other forms of media highlighting the "danger" of having guns and defending yourself with guns or just defending yourself in general are becoming more frequent. I believe that this is a direct and purposeful response to the proliferation of gun related TV media over the last few years. Gun/hunting/shooting shows on TV have resulted in large increases in gun ownership. People well into adulthood who were never before exposed to firearms or self defense are now taking an interest in both. Anecdotal evidence of full ranges and empty ammo shelves abounds.

Imagine how the Brady crowd feels about this? After years of success in weakening gun rights and "educating" the un-informed to fear and dread firearms they now find themselves losing ground. Losing a LOT of ground. Can we expect them to sit and take it? I don't think so. I think they'll pull together whatever allies they have and counterattack the counterattack. I see pieces like this one on ABC as part of that.

I have no secret meeting minutes to show you, but if ABC and George S. aren't on the "allies" list of the Brady crowd I'd be very surprised.
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Old March 8, 2012, 09:24 PM   #31
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I don't think that locking the door to some interior room and calling 911 is a good strategy per se. It may be good tactics, depending on the layout of the home - but it shouldn't be touted as some default thing to do.

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I cannot imagine any reason for anyone in his right mind to shoot through a closed door. First, there is always the risk, however small, of shooting someone that someone does no want to shoot. Second, it is awfully hard to shoot to center mass when the target is completely hidden behind, or is only partially behind, a door.
^ I think you've hit on why "lock the door - call 911" may be bad de facto tactic. It can be the equivilant of putting blindfolds on. You've basically given the assailant(s) concealment and the ability to get within 10 to 15 feet of you.

On the other hand, if they pop the door and enter, you've created a choke point and you have the advantage of knowing where the attack is coming from while the in truder has the disadvantage of not knowing initially where he's going to be taking fire from.

But haves you chosen the best posible defensive position?

If there is a better choke point or defensive position in your home, why eschew a superior defensive position and adopt an inferior one based on a knee-jerk philosophy of "lock the door - dial 911?"

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Old March 8, 2012, 10:36 PM   #32
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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fc8_1187887010

Watch that video and you tell your wife or daughter to lock herself in a room and hope the police get there in time.

My wife knows, someone comes in the house its time for the 9mm surprise...

I live in a relatively small condo, so there is not really anywhere for an intruder to "hide" the only two viable entry points are in the open. The plan if someone breaks in is for my wife to call 911 gun in hand while I go confront the threat. God forbid I am compromised you would have to be one hell of a lucky guy to have someone who is familiar with firearms miss you 17 times as you came through a doorway at less than 8 feet so at least I know she would safe.

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Old March 8, 2012, 11:58 PM   #33
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OldMarksman
<SNIP>
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As for hiding behind a locked door while someone is trying to break in, that is utterly ridiculous if you're armed or have access to a firearm.

Why's that?
Because if someone is breaking into your house when they know someone is home, it is pretty obvious that they don't give a crap about your welfare and intend to do you harm.

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It takes a few seconds to break down a door.

Well, yeah, and should someone do that, it would provide incontrovertible evidence against any possible indications that might otherwise rebut an assumption that the use of deadly force was immediately necessary.
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In my case enough time for me to draw and stop the threat as they're coming through the door or before - YES before.

I cannot imagine any reason for anyone in his right mind to shoot through a closed door. First, there is always the risk, however small, of shooting someone that someone does no want to shoot. Second, it is awfully hard to shoot to center mass when the target is completely hidden behind, or is only partially behind, a door.
Ok, let me clarify. The first thing I would do is scream out - "Get the -blank- away from my door!". Then I'll give them 1 second. If they continue, I will shoot to stop the break in. Anyone willing to break down your door when they know someone's home is not there to sell you Girl Scout Cookies. They are intending on doing you harm. At a recent community policing lecture, the officer presenting stated exactly that. EXACTLY - and I would agree 100% with him. Our's is a Castle Doctrine State. If one is really that concerned for bystanders, then shoot low.

<SNIP>

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If woken from a sound sleep by someone being in my house up to no good, I'd make sure family members are accounted for and hunker down.

Personally, I believe that is the best strategy to dal with a criminal invasion at any time of day.
We somewhat agree. It really depends on the stage of the break-in/invasion (see above).

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Clearing a house is extremely difficult under ideal situations and having just woken up doesn't help.
i would imagine that that is one of the reasons for the advice given by the unnamed experts to the ABC reporters.
I can't re-iterate this enough. Clearing a house is a last resort. I had an opportunity to train on this recently and it was probably one of the most intense things I've done - and that was just practice!
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Old March 9, 2012, 07:39 AM   #34
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Posted by C0untZer0: I think you've hit on why "lock the door - call 911" may be bad de facto tactic. It can be the equivilant of putting blindfolds on. You've basically given the assailant(s) concealment and the ability to get within 10 to 15 feet of you.
In no way can my suggestion that trying to shoot someone through a closed door be interpreted as pointing out why locking the door and calling 911 is a "bad de facto tactic".

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On the other hand, if they pop the door and enter, you've created a choke pnoint aned you have the advafntage oknowing where the attack is comindg from while the in truder has the disaedvantage of not knowing initially wherel he's going to be taking fibre fromi.
Q.E.D.

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But haves you chosen the best posible defensive position?
Great question!

A few years ago, The Best Defense had a segment on what do do if a violent criminal actor broke in and tried to attack a resident.

In each scenario, step one was to get into a safe-room, lock the door, access a firearm, and call 911. In the "best defense" scenario, the resident got behind cover that was not directly in line with the door so the intruder, if armed, would have more difficulty locating his target upon entry so the defender could fire first.

They also discussed planning the defensive position in such a manner as to provide a good back stop.

I took both aspects to heart, but that's way beyond the scope of a short TV news segment.

And not to go off topic, but again way beyond the scope of the news report, I concluded from the scenarios on that segment of The Best Defense that having to win a foot race to access a firearm was not a desirable thing.

That led me to decide to carry at home. Of course, when one thinks about it, defense against someone who rushes in from, say, the hall into the kitchen may not allow one the chance to lock a door or to call 911 before firing, but if the opportunity presents itself, getting (everyone) into a safe room, locking the door, and calling 911 is almost always the best default tactic.

Depending upon their motives, mindset, and immediate needs, invaders who have been informed that the defenders are armed and that the police have been called may well decide that breaking down the door is a poor second choice in comparison to making their escape, which is always the best outcome.
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Old March 9, 2012, 01:44 PM   #35
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Top of the stairway. I'm not saying they won't make it up the stairs, but they will have an eventful climb.
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Old March 9, 2012, 03:44 PM   #36
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im guessing most of these so called "experts" are all part of the anti-gun party and think that nobody should be allowed to defend themselves except for hiding and calling 911 which is plain worthless in my eyes. If someone is trying to break into my house for any reason, do you think you really have time to call 911 and wait for the police to show up? I dont think so... First thing im doing is getting my weapon and going to a corner of a room where i can see every angle of the room. So if they do come into that room, they are gonna wish they didnt
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Old March 9, 2012, 04:04 PM   #37
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Posted by boostedtt91: im guessing most of these so called "experts" are all part of the anti-gun party and think that nobody should be allowed to defend themselves except for hiding and calling 911 which is plain worthless in my eyes.
Actually, the experts who recommend taking up a defensive position and calling 911 rather than trying to confront an intruder include all of the well-known instructors, trainers, and writers in the field of home defense.

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If someone is trying to break into my house for any reason, do you think you really have time to call 911 and wait for the police to show up? I dont think so...
Whether you will have time for someone to call 911 before having to defend yourself will depend upon circumstances, but if it is possible it is a very good idea.

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First thing im doing is getting my weapon and going to a corner of a room where i can see every angle of the room. So if they do come into that room, they are gonna wish they didnt
I'm not sure what your home layout is, but one would generally be best served by getting his or her weapon and getting behind concealment, if cover is not possible, where it is possible to see the path by which the invaders would have to approach.
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Old March 9, 2012, 08:44 PM   #38
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I again ask if folks who say that will do things, like go into the corner, have tried such in force on force. There are people who know how to deal with something standing in corner.

As far as the experts being part of the antigun party - have you met any of them? I suggest it as they would be annoyed with you.
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Old March 11, 2012, 12:17 AM   #39
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I believe that the overwhelming consensus of expert opinion is to get family members to safety, whether or not the bad guys are already in.
Don't think so. Who could believe that your family is safer if you allow home invaders into your home under the mistaken belief that escorting your family to safety is the first priority---knowing they'll be MUCH harder to deal with once they're in?

Your family should know how to go to safety on their own. GUARD THE DOOR! That's when Bubba and his friends are most vulnerable.

If they're already in the house, then I agree that getting them to safety is the best course.
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Old March 11, 2012, 06:49 AM   #40
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OldMarksman: Actually, the experts who recommend taking up a defensive position and calling 911 rather than trying to confront an intruder include all of the well-known instructors, trainers, and writers in the field of home defense.
I live in an apartment, one way in and one way out. I will be hid behind cover to open fire as they come through the living room door, just about the only way to get in. I won't be calling 911 till the gunfight is over, because I will not give away my position to the intruders. There is no exit to retreat. I am confident that I can stop any one, two or three intruders coming through the door with my S&W 625-5 45 Long Colt and my CA Bulldog 44 Spl.

My home is not the typical one which might have 2 or 3 ways to get in or out. Once the gunfight is over, I will then call 911. Intruders with good hearing might hear someone dialing and know which way to direct their gunfire. Armed or unarmed they will not make it beyond the living room door.

I do understand however, that others who have a way to exit their home to escape with family might choose that option. I do not have an option except to stop them at the entry point.
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Old March 11, 2012, 03:33 PM   #41
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Actually, the experts who recommend taking up a defensive position and calling 911 rather than trying to confront an intruder include all of the well-known instructors, trainers, and writers in the field of home defense.
Taking up a defensive position and being willing to fight, if necessary, IS confronting an intruder. Best time to do it is before they get in. The safe room is the next place to make your stand if they are in.

Perhaps what you mean is that going out from your position of cover to confront them once they are in your house is not recommended. I agree.
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Old March 12, 2012, 07:41 AM   #42
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Posted by Nnobby45: GUARD THE DOOR! That's when Bubba and his friends are most vulnerable.
I suppose one might be able to try that if there is one and one and only one door, the invasion attempt has been detected before it occurs, there is no other possible point of ingress, and that door can be defended from a safe place.
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Old March 12, 2012, 06:00 PM   #43
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I suppose one might be able to try that if there is one and one and only one door, the invasion attempt has been detected before it occurs, there is no other possible point of ingress, and that door can be defended from a safe place.
Thanks for pointing that out, Marksman. I hadn't realized that defending the door they were trying to break through was so complicated. Now I've got to consider that the front door is just a diversion to the main attack coming through the back door, at least one bedroom window, and maybe a garage doggie door simultaneously.

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Old March 12, 2012, 06:26 PM   #44
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I can't see any other option but going on the offensive. The distances involved in your house are not hundreds of feet, but a matter of feet and the intruder in those videos is moving fast. They will get to you in a few seconds. You probably wont have time to grab your pistol or even make a phonecall. Will you have time to run into the bedroom and lock it? You might be able to throw on the privacy lock which is on most bedroom doors, but that is not going to stop anyone. They will kick that in easily and then what?

Lets talk real tactics. You throw whatever you can at the attacker and scream profanity and threats. For example, I see a mug, a small table, a chair and some books in the room I am in. Grab and throw right at the head. Landing a blow on the body won't do anything but delay their forward momentum.

If you have a pistol, then get behind something to conceal yourself and get into a low profile position covering the open area. If you can retreat out of a door or window then do it but chances are the intruder will be moving so fast you wont have that opportunity. Once you see them, you can go ahead and yell a warning, but if they had enough courage to come through the door then they are probably armed and will ignore your shouted warnings. Then its time to lay down a triple-tap and open fire.

The woman in the video did make a mistake. She shot one round which didnt stop the attacker so she had to hit him again. If you intend to shoot, then do a double or triple tap. No matter what caliber you are using one round isnt going to stop anyone unless you get lucky and hit them where it truly counts. If a burglar hits my house then they will be lucky if they come out of the house with just one round. Im going to triple tap and most likely they will be leaving here in the Coroner's wagon. Thats not my fault though. If someone breaks down the door looking to rob and hurt me then they came looking for trouble and I am going to defend myself.

I respect all of the well know trainers, but this is the real world I live in. I am right now sitting a matter of 10 or so feet from the entrance of my home. If someone comes through that door right now then there is certainly no way I will have time to run to the bedroom. More likely, this notebook computer Im typing on will be the first object thrown at their head.

Last edited by CaptainObvious; March 12, 2012 at 06:33 PM.
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Old March 12, 2012, 07:15 PM   #45
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Well, getting into a defensive position and letting the perp come to you has been shown time and again to be the most effective strategy by far, and I do not know why anyone would call it "insane".

All real experts I know of recommend that approach.
AA +1,

I've decided, if possible my "last stand" will be at the top of the inside stairs. If needed I can prone out, stand, or kneel behind a corner wall which has a triple stud support corner.

If I can't pick the time of the fight at least I can pick the place.
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Old March 12, 2012, 07:16 PM   #46
Glenn E. Meyer
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You probably wont have time to grab your pistol or even make a phonecall
There is a misperception going on. First, some folks are talking about hearing an intruder and having time to respond. Thus, you hunker down as compared to going house clearing while racking your shotgun repeatedly (sly wit).

If the door crashes in and it is deliberately targeting you - throwing mugs won't do squat or will charging like Tarzan.

Lots of folks carry a gun around the house. Silly not and easy to do with today's compact guns.

But to repeat, if you face a crew and you have time to retrieve a gun and you then go looking for them - that is not advised.
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Old March 12, 2012, 08:49 PM   #47
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This is what we teach in self defense classes around here all the time. If someone is coming at you then you use whatever object you can grab and throw it at their head. This will cause attacker to throw up their hands or duck which will distract them for a second or two. During that crucial time then you can manuever out of the way. You want the attacker to lose their line of sight and slow their forward momentum.

The command voice is the first line of defense for everyone and will harden you as a target. It will also help pump that needed adrenaline into you to prepare for a physical fight. Yelling might scare or distract them. It will let them know that if they come in close their will be a fight. Sometimes yelling the right words can make the attacker think twice.

When defending yourself hand to hand then you have to remember the goal is trying to get away. Its not a prize fight and the goal is not to knock then out. Simply put, you are basically trying to distract and disorient to buy a few seconds so you can escape. There are some great self defense classes out there which are designed for women, but men can take away a lot from them. I paid to take this course out of my own pocket and learned a lot from it. It also teaches you how to handle multiple attackers in an ambush situation.

http://www.rad-systems.com/

If someone came through my door right now while Im laying down on the couch with my laptop I know I would not be able to escape nor would I be able to go for my pistol or make a phonecall. The only thing I could do is throw whatever object I have in my hand and yell at the top of my lungs then try to escape. The general idea is evade, escape and resist.

There are specially built security screen doors with deadbolts which make home invasion more difficult. I have these on my home making the frontal attack on the entranceway less likely. Of course, there are other ways in like a rock through the window, but the security screen will at least close the entranceway loophole.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/cata...&Ntpr=1&Ntpc=1
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Old March 12, 2012, 09:15 PM   #48
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I have no problem with the advice of locking your door and calling the fuzz and obviously they can't cover every scenario for every individule in a 5 min news clip. Personally I think some of us gun nuts can be a little thin skinned and some think any advice that doesn't include the words "shoot and shoot again" is anti gun. Run away and live to run away another day is a creedo I'd like to live by. Clearing houses is dumb. Clearing your yard is dumb. Both of which I've done for what ever reason crawled into my behind. I was dumb.

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Old March 13, 2012, 09:39 AM   #49
Glenn E. Meyer
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Why not wear or carry a gun? Simple question. As I said, a serious attack isn't going to be deterred by yelling and screaming and charging right at them.

They have broken in noisly and probably expect such. That's different from a H2H mugger on the street.

If you are seriously considering a violent break-in, carry a gun and cut the coffee cup gung fu.
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Old March 13, 2012, 11:11 AM   #50
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Posted by CaptainObvious: Lets talk real tactics. You throw whatever you can at the attacker and scream profanity and threats. For example, I see a mug, a small table, a chair and some books in the room I am in. Grab and throw right at the head. Landing a blow on the body won't do anything but delay their forward momentum.
And then what?

That seems like a losing strategy to me.

Quote:
I am right now sitting a matter of 10 or so feet from the entrance of my home. If someone comes through that door right now then there is certainly no way I will have time to run to the bedroom.
Some years ago I was sitting in the living room looking at the front door, which is at the bottom of the stairs, and it occurred to me that I would be unable to get to the firearm in the bedroom if someone were to come in through that door.

I had been reading a couple of discussions here. One was about stashing firearms in more than one location. The other was about carrying at home. At first thought, the latter idea seemed preposterous, so I was contemplating the former.

It occurred to me that a home invader might suddenly and violently breach that front door, cutting me off from the stairs. I realized that there were other possibilities. One was that an intruder might enter through either of two back doors on the first floor; depending upon where I happened to be at the time, I would either be cut off or engaged in a footrace to the bedroom, perhaps leaving my wife in danger. And than there was the possibility of an sudden entrance into the first floor area from the door to the basement. And there are windows to take into account.

The more I reflected upon the possibilities, the more I realized that (1) the firearm in the bedroom would likely be of little use to me unless a break-in occurred while we happened to be in the bedroom, and (2) here were no desirable and effective ways to stash other firearms here and there.

There was one obvious answer, suggested here by Glenn E. Meyer: "Why not wear or carry a gun? Simple question".

The place from where you may have to defend yourself could be anywhere in the house.
OldMarksman is offline  
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