The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 7, 2012, 12:36 PM   #1
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
According to ABC the days of grabbing a baseball bat and heading to the door are over

I don't know who their experts are but in the story the reporter says:
Quote:
Security experts [sic] say the smart thing to do is lock the door of the room that you're in and call 911.
How insane is that? They show footage of burglars breaking open front doors, but a bedroom door is going to stop them cold in their tracks?

http://www.sj-r.com/popular_video?nd...ec=top-stories

Also kind of funny - the 911 operator in one case seems to be very dissapointed that a homeowner shot to defend herself he says "Maam, did you shoot AGAIN ?"

But just tactics wise, IMO, unless you've invested in a bullet-proof door and the heavy-duty frame to support it, a bedroom door doesn't do much for you besides buy you a ittle bit of time.

Last edited by C0untZer0; March 7, 2012 at 02:02 PM.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old March 7, 2012, 01:16 PM   #2
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 2,030
Quote:
Posted by C0untZer0: Security experts [sic] say the smart thing to do is lock the door of the room that you're in and call 911. How insane is that? They show footage of burglars break open front doors, but a dedroom door is going to stop them cold in their tracks?
Well, getting into a defensive position and letting the perp come to you has been shown time and again to be the most effective strategy by far, and I do not know why anyone would call it "insane".

All real experts I know of recommend that approach.

On the other hand, grabbing a baseball bat and heading to the door leaves on vulnerable to being overpowered, shot, or ambushed by an accomplice entering through a different point of ingress, and for one who adopts that strategy during a real emergency, his days of doing that may be over very quickly indeed.
OldMarksman is online now  
Old March 7, 2012, 02:00 PM   #3
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
Taking up a defensive position is one thing - locking your door and dialing 911 is another.

Where your defensive position is depends on a lot of factors such as - the layout of the house, how much fore warning you have of the break-in etc...

For some people - it is a place in the hall, in front of the kid's bedroom, maybe it's at a staircase, maybe it is your bedroom door - it depends.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old March 7, 2012, 02:37 PM   #4
output
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2008
Posts: 294
I cannot understand that way of thinking. It is okay to be a victim apparently?

I do not think their “experts” were talking about locking your bedroom door and taking a defensive position. It seemed to me as if they were actually recommending that you hide in a closet or behind a bedroom door and hope that the police get to you in time.

If the intruder really wants to harm you I do not think your bedroom door is going to stop them especially if your front door did not do a good job.

Locking a door, taking up a defensive position, and calling the police is one thing. Locking the door and hiding while you call the police and hoping you do not become a victim is entirely something else. I vaguely remember reading somewhere recently that the average police response time in the US is between 7-10 minutes. A lot can go wrong in 7-10 minutes, but even that seems like a really fast response time. What happens when you live in a city like Detroit? I have read that the average police response time in Detroit is well over 30 minutes right now if they respond within the same day...
__________________
"All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." -Winston Churchill

Last edited by output; March 7, 2012 at 02:49 PM.
output is offline  
Old March 7, 2012, 04:02 PM   #5
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 2,030
Quote:
Posted by C0untZer0: Taking up a defensive position is one thing - locking your door and dialing 911 is another.
Are you recommending against locking the door or against dialing 911, or both?

Quote:
Posted by output: I do not think their “experts” were talking about locking your bedroom door and taking a defensive position. It seemed to me as if they were actually recommending that you hide in a closet or behind a bedroom door and hope that the police get to you in time.
What is it about "lock the door to the room that you are in and call 911" that would lead anyone to that conclusion?

Of course, any reasonable person, however armed and however prepared, would hope that the police arrive in time, though that may be unlikely. The ten year old girl in the news story had no other alternative.

Quote:
Locking a door, taking up a defensive position, and calling the police is one thing. Locking the door and hiding while you call the police and hoping you do not become a victim is entirely something else.
How so?
OldMarksman is online now  
Old March 7, 2012, 04:36 PM   #6
Vermonter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2010
Posts: 955
Its all about the situation

Currently my household consists of my better half and a dog. We all sleep in the bedroom at night and the front door is locked and barricaded with a door knob brace.

The only other door to my home is a second story glass slider that would be difficult to access in the least. That is broom handled so the only way to break in is to break glass. This would be followed by a woof wooff click click. (dog and shotgun for those of you who have your funny censor turned off)

Basically the only way into my home is to make a hell of a lot of noise. We sleep with the door closed and locked anyway so therefore I would 911 and we would hold our position in the bedroom.

There is however a large portion of my home where there is no safe spot between us and the front and back door. In other words I would have to pass the threat to get to the bedroom and so forth. In this situation I am at an advantage if I meet the threat head on.

Regards, Vermonter
Vermonter is offline  
Old March 7, 2012, 05:10 PM   #7
output
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2008
Posts: 294
Quote:
Of course, any reasonable person, however armed and however prepared, would hope that the police arrive in time, though that may be unlikely.
Exactly. I would also hope that any reasonable person would have a backup plan of some sort. Not just "hope" everything will be okay if they lock their door.

I think we are all responsible for our own selfdefense/wellbeing to a certain degree. Are we not?

Quote:
How so?
Expecting a reasonable law-abiding citizen to defend themselves "lawfully" if need be is reasonable. Expecting someone to be a victim is not okay in my opinion.
__________________
"All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." -Winston Churchill
output is offline  
Old March 7, 2012, 05:27 PM   #8
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,969
Springfield ILL. anti gun state there or what?
markj is offline  
Old March 7, 2012, 07:46 PM   #9
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,800
If the suggestion is that you go on the offensive, so to speak - that's a bad idea unless you have to rescue a loved one - kid, spouse, etc.

Hunkering down behind a locked door and calling the law is smart. So is being able to trigger the alarm from your safe area.

Yep, it might offend your guardian of the universe worldview - get over it.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old March 7, 2012, 08:15 PM   #10
KyJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 7,718
I can tell you from near personal experience that hunkering down and calling 911 is the right thing to do if you can.

A few years ago, my two daughters (12 and 14 at the time) were sleeping late during summer when a thief broke through a window and climbed into my bedroom. He had knocked on the door first to see if anyone was home. They didn't answer but this woke up my oldest daughter and when she heard him coming in, she went into my youngest daughter's bedroom. They couldn't escape because they were in a room immediately across the hallway from my bedroom where the thief entered. They hunkered down and called 911. Fortunately, there was a patrol car on the street and they caught the thief inside our house.

Now, I know you can't count on such an immediate response by the police but the point is that they minimized their risk and let the police handle it. Good advice, IMO. Of course, I firmly believe you should have a gun while hunkering down -- just in case.
__________________
Jim's Rules of Carry: 1. Any gun is better than no gun. 2. A gun that is reliable is better than a gun that is not. 3. A hole in the right place is better than a hole in the wrong place. 4. A bigger hole is a better hole.
KyJim is offline  
Old March 7, 2012, 09:58 PM   #11
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
I think what C0untZer0 was saying was less on the lines of "go on the offensive" and more on the lines of:

1) Unless one has invested in a solid-core bedroom door, strong locks, and a reinforced door frame, one probably has a door that can be kicked in by a junior high cheerleader - ergo, the ABC recommendation left out some critical details (install the right door and parts, and have a weapon);

2) Depending on home layout and disposition of family members, retreat to the bedroom may not be feasible;

3) Other defensive positions might make more sense, depending on who is where - in my home, defending from the top of the stairs might make sense, if I had people in the guest bedrooms, for example.
MLeake is offline  
Old March 7, 2012, 10:06 PM   #12
lawnboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2011
Location: here
Posts: 551
If they are after your stuff, locking you and yours in a room and calling 911 may work.

If they are after you, which is often the case in home invasions, locking you and yours in a room and calling 911 will only buy you a little time. I can get through my bedroom doors with nothing but my shoulder in less than 5 seconds.

From the tenor of the video I think the point was "don't try to defend yourself, just hide". This is weak, helpless nonsense.

While I think establishing a defensive position behind a locked door may sometimes be the way to go, I won't be "just hiding".
__________________
"Me fail English? That's un-possible!" --Ralph Wiggum

"A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her"-- W.C Fields
lawnboy is offline  
Old March 7, 2012, 10:25 PM   #13
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 2,030
Quote:
Posted by lawnboy: If they are after your stuff, locking you and yours in a room and calling 911 may work.

If they are after you, which is often the case in home invasions, locking you and yours in a room and calling 911 will only buy you a little time. I can get through my bedroom doors with nothing but my shoulder in less than 5 seconds.
True enough.

Quote:
From the tenor of the video I think the point was "don't try to defend yourself, just hide".
That was not my take at all.

Of course, the video, which was edited to fit a time slot, was not comprehensive. My take is that the reporters consulted some qualified experts, who properly advised that the thing to do is to assume a defensive position.

Quote:
This is weak, helpless nonsense.
OK. Had you been the 911 dispatcher, what would you have told the children?
OldMarksman is online now  
Old March 7, 2012, 10:35 PM   #14
Mobuck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 2,332
Around here, the deputies might be so long in arriving the bad guys could take all your goodies and burn your house down around you before the law is onsite.
My choice is to take care of the problem as needed and let the deputies record the results.
Mobuck is offline  
Old March 7, 2012, 10:50 PM   #15
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
What the ABC report does is it takes an example of a 10 year old girl sucessfully hiding in a closet with her brothers and sets that as the best thing to do according to "security experts"

He ends by saying:

Quote:
apparantly we can all learn alot from that 10 year old girl.
Three children in a very bad situation. That's about all they can do. Probably the best advice to give children.

But this is a morning news program - it's not a kids program. They're taking a situation that happened to a 10 year old and subtly spinning it as advice to all adults.

Would I advocate that children hide in a closet or cubby hole? Yes.

Is that what a father or a mother or generally what the adult population should do.

No - I think it's bad tactics.

I'm not advocating clearing a house, I do believe in taking up a defensive position. Again - I say it depends on the situation and the layout of the house. If you can get your loved ones all gathered together in a safe room, lock the door and wait - that's great. It's predicated on being alarmed to the break-in and having time to marshall everyone together.

Quote:
Are you recommending against locking the door or against dialing 911, or both?
My defensive position based on the layout of my home is the hallway leading to my bedroom and my kid's bedroom.

My kid's room has 2 doors, one to the hallway and one to the bathroom. If I let intruders get through that choke point - assuming they continue the attack after shots are fired, I now have 2 entrances to gaurd and I've given concealment to the assailants.

So my defensive point is not behind a locked door - I have to have visibility into that hallway.

As far as dialling 911, I'm not against it, but the cell phone is not a "valuable weapon to protect those around you" as Diane Sawyer erroneously stated in her rather slanted piece on guns. I recognize the importance of a phone but I don't plan to delay arming myself while I talk on it. I'm armed first, in position second, (if the situation allows) and then dialling 911 third (again - if the situation allows).

Last edited by C0untZer0; March 7, 2012 at 11:03 PM.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old March 7, 2012, 10:59 PM   #16
orionengnr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2004
Posts: 5,015
Quote:
From the tenor of the video I think the point was "don't try to defend yourself, just hide". This is weak, helpless nonsense.
This is what nearly all 911 operators and ALL MSM reporters espouse.

They are trying to turn us into England (do a search).

Any time you see George Stephanopolous as part of a report, you had better know which direction it is going to be spinning.

Last edited by orionengnr; March 7, 2012 at 11:08 PM.
orionengnr is offline  
Old March 7, 2012, 11:12 PM   #17
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
Well I know this particular aspect doesn't have anything to do with tactics but that one 911 operator is a little odd.

The 911 operator says

Maam, did you shoot AGAIN ?


It's like he's exasperated. He doesn't say "Maam, what happened?" "Maam I thought I heard shots, are you alright?"

No, it's like "Are you still shooting that guy? Enough is enough already... when are you going to stop?"
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old March 7, 2012, 11:13 PM   #18
lawnboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2011
Location: here
Posts: 551
OldMarksman wrote:
Quote:
OK. Had you been the 911 dispatcher, what would you have told the children?
I'm not commenting on the specific instance. I'm commenting on what I see as the point of pieces like this by media outlets. The point of pieces like the one posted above, and this one

http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-03-...snt-safer.html

and statements by government officials like this one:

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/20...n-be-a-victim/

is to get people not to take steps to be responsible for their own defense. Especially not if it involves fighting back (and really, really especially if it involves using firearms!). I see it as part of the anti-gun agenda.

You are free to see it as you will.
__________________
"Me fail English? That's un-possible!" --Ralph Wiggum

"A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her"-- W.C Fields
lawnboy is offline  
Old March 7, 2012, 11:27 PM   #19
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,150
Quote:
I cannot understand that way of thinking. It is okay to be a victim apparently?
You sound like you understand just fine. Liberals are the supreme advocate of victimhood---even to the extent of making it the law if they can.

You know how it works. A woman is kidnapped and murdered and when they find the body a couple hundred people hold a candlelight vigil. They bring flowers and Teddy Bears, sing songs and deliver a glowing eulogy with regards to what a great person she was.

Same woman perforates the bastards frame with .38 Special DPX or Speer Gold Dot, and she'll find out who her real friends and supporters are.

The truth is, fighting back is against the principles of the candlelight vigilantes, who are embarassed that someone would actually defend their life and prevail while they would never consider such a thing.

NO, not slamming all those who attend the candlelight ceremony (I've been to one). Just the ones whose support is non existent when the victim fights back and survives, maybe killing her attacker in the process.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old March 8, 2012, 08:10 AM   #20
output
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2008
Posts: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by C0untZer0
What the ABC report does is it takes an example of a 10 year old girl sucessfully hiding in a closet with her brothers and sets that as the best thing to do according to "security experts"

He ends by saying:

Quote:
apparantly we can all learn alot from that 10 year old girl.
That was my take on the report as well.

I was not advocating going on the offense either. I was suggesting that is best to have a backup plan, and to take up a defensive position while you are in your bedroom, safe room, etc. Just in case the police are not able to respond in time. Every situation will vary but having a plan to protect your family if need be is highly recommended.

I also agree that the children in the report were in a very bad situation and responded to the situation as best they could have. That advice is about the best you can give small children.
__________________
"All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." -Winston Churchill

Last edited by output; March 8, 2012 at 01:59 PM. Reason: changed "recommend" to "recommended"
output is offline  
Old March 8, 2012, 11:50 AM   #21
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,028
To me, the point of the story was that criminals are becoming more brazen and dangerous, and that viewers should think about how they are going to respond. I join the reporters in thinking that the 10 year old girl did pretty well, but I didn't really feel like they condemned the armed homeowners who defended themselves. With or without a pistol in your hand, an early 911 call stands the best chance of getting someone else there who is going to be on your side.

In this forum, we preach to the choir when we say that a phone shouldn't be our only defense, but for some people it is, and a lot of people haven't given a moment's thought about what else they would need to do to survive such a scenario. If that report causes a few people to consider such things, it is a good thing. I didn't find the report to be particularly offensive or objectionable.
TailGator is offline  
Old March 8, 2012, 01:47 PM   #22
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 2,030
I agree with Gator.
OldMarksman is online now  
Old March 8, 2012, 02:21 PM   #23
lawnboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2011
Location: here
Posts: 551
Quote:
To me, the point of the story was that criminals are becoming more brazen and dangerous, and that viewers should think about how they are going to respond. I join the reporters in thinking that the 10 year old girl did pretty well, but I didn't really feel like they condemned the armed homeowners who defended themselves. With or without a pistol in your hand, an early 911 call stands the best chance of getting someone else there who is going to be on your side.

In this forum, we preach to the choir when we say that a phone shouldn't be our only defense, but for some people it is, and a lot of people haven't given a moment's thought about what else they would need to do to survive such a scenario. If that report causes a few people to consider such things, it is a good thing. I didn't find the report to be particularly offensive or objectionable.
The old saying goes "half of life is just showing up". This is true. But it is also the half of life that everyone does whether they try or not. The other half of life is where the action is. And the opportunity.

It is in the DNA of humans to run and hide in the face of danger. No one has to tell anyone that. This is the "just showing up" part. Since no one has to tell a person to run away, I automatically look with suspicion on any "informative" news story that feels the need to reinforce it. Why do they avoid any advice on anything but running away? What might be their motive?

A truly informative piece by ABC would have established that after you've run away as best you can, you should be prepared to continue to defend yourself with whatever you have, whether that is a baseball bat, other improvised weapon, a knife or a firearm. The piece would have pointed out that if you have to improvise a weapon after running away you haven't been as thorough as you might have been in your planning. Improvisation implies an oversight. Planning to continue defending yourself with weapons would be in addition to the "just showing up" part.

Since advice about actual weapons was left out of the ABC "informative" piece I'm forced to include that such an omission in a piece ABOUT SURVIVING AN ATTACK means that ABC is of the opinion that defending yourself with weapons against attack isn't a good idea.

This is about what I expect from ABC. Which is why I don't get my information about surviving attacks, or doing anything else, from them.

I don't think the piece was offensive or objectionable. People are free to make themselves easy prey. But I see an agenda here that I don't agree with.
__________________
"Me fail English? That's un-possible!" --Ralph Wiggum

"A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her"-- W.C Fields
lawnboy is offline  
Old March 8, 2012, 02:53 PM   #24
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 2,030
Quote:
Posted by lawnboy: It is in the DNA of humans to run and hide in the face of danger. No one has to tell anyone that.
Well, maybe, but the vast majority of the "this happened to me" stories that one reads here and on other gun boards would lead one to believe that it is programmed into the minds of many uninformed and untrained armed citizens to arm themselves and go forth to confront trouble. Advising people to not do that is a good idea.

Quote:
Why do they avoid any advice on anything but running away?
They did not. They advised locking the door and calling 911--and that's the best simple advice to give. To talk about a parent rounding up the children first, for example, would be far too complicated for a short news blurb.

Quote:
Since advice about actual weapons was left out of the ABC "informative" piece I'm forced to include that such an omission in a piece ABOUT SURVIVING AN ATTACK means that ABC is of the opinion that defending yourself with weapons against attack isn't a good idea.
I draw no such conclusion. I detected no hint of an opinion that the several defensive shootings mentioned in the piece were not "good shoots", to use the vernacular.

Advice on weapons would be far too specific for a general news article.
OldMarksman is online now  
Old March 8, 2012, 03:36 PM   #25
Onward Allusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: IN
Posts: 1,787
Quote:
All real experts I know of recommend that approach.
It depends on the situation. If the BGs are already in and there are other family members in the house, there's no way I'd get separated from them.

As for hiding behind a locked door while someone is trying to break in, that is utterly ridiculous if you're armed or have access to a firearm. It takes a few seconds to break down a door. In my case enough time for me to draw and stop the threat as they're coming through the door or before - YES before. Yes, I carry at home. I pretty much carry at all waking hours.

If woken from a sound sleep by someone being in my house up to no good, I'd make sure family members are accounted for and hunker down. Clearing a house is extremely difficult under ideal situations and having just woken up doesn't help.
__________________
"With great power, there must also come great responsibility." - Stan Lee

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

Last edited by Onward Allusion; March 8, 2012 at 03:46 PM. Reason: grammar
Onward Allusion is offline  
Reply

Tags
home defense , home invasion , home protection , tactics

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14875 seconds with 7 queries