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Old May 9, 2012, 05:18 AM   #1
vostracker
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Paramilitary Training??

Caught this in the news. Some White Supremacist idiots were arrested in Florida. What stood out to me was one of the charges filed against them, "Paramilitary Training". Not sure what the specifics are on that charge/law, but how far of a stretch would it be for that to include "Tactical Training"??

Just something to ponder!!
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Old May 9, 2012, 05:27 AM   #2
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http://www.times-standard.com/staten...onspiracy-case

Quote:
Authorities said they arrested 27-year-old Christopher Brooks, 21-year-old Dustin Perry and 23-year-old Richard Stockdale late Monday. Like seven others arrested last week in a multi-agency investigation, all three were charged with paramilitary training, attempt to shoot into an occupied dwelling and evidence of prejudices while committing offense, a first-degree felony.

It is a felony in Florida to participate in paramilitary training for use "in furtherance of, a civil disorder within the United States." The "prejudices" charge falls under Florida's hate crimes law.
Seems like a good arrest to me. I dont see 'tactical training' at a legit training facility being threatened.
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Old May 9, 2012, 07:46 AM   #3
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Florida law

Skadoosh: Thanks for clarifying the law. I have no problem in the individuals being arrested for their crimes, I just thought tcharge listing, "Paramilitary Training" brought up an interesting situation where one could include tactical training into it.

I have met some individuals who think and see any type of "Tactical Training", such as a tactical carbine/shotgun courses as paramilitary type training!! With todays liberal views and political correctness I could see this happen. Maybe Claire Wolfe might chime in with her thoughts!!
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Old May 9, 2012, 08:42 AM   #4
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The larger question is if going out on the mesa and unloading a bunch of Wally World ammo is enough for Homeland or some other agency to "send in the scoops? Do you have to shoot in a formally regulated environment? Is it the wearing of the camo? Black rifles? Three or more shooters? Doing push-ups?
What makes it paramilitary? What is the trip wire for the offense.
When does it stop being plinking, and become a crime?
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Old May 9, 2012, 09:36 AM   #5
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Skadoosh nailed it earlier. The full text of the relevant law is here, but the important parts are that for the training to be unlawful, the person conducting it must fall under the "knowing or having reason to know or intending that the same will be unlawfully employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder within the United States" wording of the law.

Also, further down in the law, it explicitly says that "training or teaching of the use of weapons to be used for hunting, recreation, competition, self-defense or the protection of one’s person or property, or other lawful use" is strictly NOT prohibited by the law.
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Old May 9, 2012, 09:39 AM   #6
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I think the point here is that taking a snippet from a larger context causes undue anxiety where there should be none...
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old May 9, 2012, 10:17 AM   #7
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Clarification

ScottRiqui: Thank you for the site which states the law.
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Old May 9, 2012, 12:16 PM   #8
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Confusing.

What I found most confusing was the FBI connection, and Florida laws. There
doesn't seem to be any federal charges. Is this policy for the FBI with their apparent manpower shortage to investigate state law infractions?
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Old May 9, 2012, 04:40 PM   #9
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To avoid "double jeapordy" Feds will usually defer prosecution to a local jurisdiction in order to have a fall back case if things go poorly at a State trial. The other way is that they'll let the jusidiction with "the most teeth" take the first bite.

That's how the Army convicted a retiree a few years back of murder after North Carolina failed to convict. No double jeapordy because of two different jurisdictions.

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Old May 9, 2012, 05:56 PM   #10
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Thanks for the clarification!

It looks like you really must have some kind of history to be affected. These
guys were originally a California problem that migrated east. I guess if you act like a jerk long enough, eventually it catches up to you. Facial tats really are some kind of self identifier or what?
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Old May 9, 2012, 06:34 PM   #11
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I will reserve judgment until trial...I can see it now

"Yeah Mr. Skinhead, i'm a skinhead too and I hate Obama. Can you teach me how to shoot?"

"Sure I can"

"Freeze , FBI Agent!"

Seen it too many times where the government "upfront" seems to have a good case but they end up pleading the guys out on much less severe charges because the case is BS.


On a curious note, I wonder how many Occupy types fall under this law. After reading the Florida Law excerpt I imagine you could use it as a catch all to arrest all sorts of Occupy types for teaching others to make a device that can be "capable of causing injury".
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Old May 10, 2012, 07:18 AM   #12
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I can only imagine Jethro and Cletus running around in XXXL BDU pants, Ted Nugent T-shirt, trucker hat and old-school LBE, doing "tactical" maneuvers. Like the wannabes I see at my range rolling around on the ground like a beached whale trying to engage 100-meter targets like they see on TV.

I don't know whether to laugh of call the Marine Mammal rescue line.....
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Old May 10, 2012, 07:54 AM   #13
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Quote:
It is a felony in Florida to participate in paramilitary training for use "in furtherance of, a civil disorder within the United States." The "prejudices" charge falls under Florida's hate crimes law.
I cringe every time that I encounter some legal sanction or prohibition that purports to grok a person's intended future actions.
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Old May 10, 2012, 08:46 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skadoosh
Quote:
Authorities said they arrested 27-year-old Christopher Brooks, 21-year-old Dustin Perry and 23-year-old Richard Stockdale late Monday. Like seven others arrested last week in a multi-agency investigation, all three were charged with paramilitary training, attempt to shoot into an occupied dwelling and evidence of prejudices while committing offense, a first-degree felony.

It is a felony in Florida to participate in paramilitary training for use "in furtherance of, a civil disorder within the United States." The "prejudices" charge falls under Florida's hate crimes law.
Seems like a good arrest to me. I dont see 'tactical training' at a legit training facility being threatened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vostracker
Skadoosh: Thanks for clarifying the law. I have no problem in the individuals being arrested for their crimes, I just thought tcharge listing, "Paramilitary Training" brought up an interesting situation where one could include tactical training into it.

I have met some individuals who think and see any type of "Tactical Training", such as a tactical carbine/shotgun courses as paramilitary type training!!
"Tactical" training most likely IS paramilitary training. And many (most?) states have laws that prohibit paramilitary training ... generally subject to a proviso like Florida's -- when the (alleged) paramilitary training is carried out in furtherance of an intent to cause civil unrest (or similar verbiage). I don't recall if any of those laws I've looked at ever actually defined what "paramilitary" means in the context of the law, so it would be easy to include just about any sort of tactical training.

IMHO, the issue isn't the paramilitary-ness of "tactical" training (since "tactical" usually isn't well-defined by the places that purport to offer it, either), but the intent behind the training. Those state laws I've seen generally paralleled Florida's, which means the arrest isn't because of participating in paramilitary training, but doing so with the intention of causing civil unrest. In other words -- training to be a terrorist. So the real concern is how broadly that might be construed, and what level of proof a jurisdiction must produce to support a charge that "paramilitary" training is for the purpose of creating civil unrest.
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Old October 5, 2012, 01:50 AM   #15
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Were these people really arrested because of this??? I did not see ANYTHING in this video that shows they were planning acts of violence. Even the informant was asking if certain things were legal, most likely because he knew they were opposed to doing anything illegal. Are we NOT in America? Do we NOT have freedom of speech? Weather that includes a demonstration or speaking our minds, it is within our rights as Americans.
The 1st Amendment: FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
The 2nd Amendment: THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS
So why are these people really being arrested? Weather you agree with their political views or not you cant deny they are within their rights as Americans and nothing here proves otherwise!

Watch the videos, make your own conclusions!

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/raw-...graphic/vd5St/
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Old October 5, 2012, 07:35 AM   #16
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Quote:
The 1st Amendment: FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
The 2nd Amendment: THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS
The 1st Amendment is subject to restrictions on time, place, and manner. There are laws against slander and, yes, conspiracy.

Likewise, the 2nd Amendment is still subject to quite a bit of regulation.

Quote:
So why are these people really being arrested? Weather you agree with their political views or not you cant deny they are within their rights as Americans and nothing here proves otherwise!
Their rights don't include hatching a conspiracy to attack a government building, nor do they extend to gearing up and training for that specific purpose.

We're not on the jury, and we haven't seen the indictment, so we don't have all the facts. However, prosecutors don't usually bring a case unless they've got some evidence.
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Old October 5, 2012, 07:46 AM   #17
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The intent, knowing or having reason to know is a big qualification.

If someone who had been an infantryman wanted to take a couple of gun buddies out and show them how to assault a bunker using a big cardboard box a baseball and their favorite long guns it wouldn't be a crime unless they were planning on assaulting the post office or something. If, as is much more likely, the guy was just showing off or trying to give them a feel for how the Army or Marine Corps trains, it wouldn't be a problem.

Unless one of them had a heart attack while doing three to five second rushes.
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Old October 5, 2012, 01:03 PM   #18
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Does this count as para-military training?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us...rers.html?_r=1
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Old October 5, 2012, 01:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skadoosh
Seems like a good arrest to me. I dont see 'tactical training' at a legit training facility being threatened.
The law in my state reads very similarly. Intent seems to be a crucial element. Tactical training, even paramilitary training, with the intent of defending yourself, your family, and even the state would appear to be legal. The same training with the intent to overthrow the government would be illegal.

Should make for interesting cases in court ...
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Old October 5, 2012, 02:21 PM   #20
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An element of many crimes is intent. Prosecutors often are able to prove intent to the satisfaction of a jury.

In this case, we probably don't have all the information, but it's quite possible that the training included literature or documentation from which an intent to "further a civil disorder" could be inferred.
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Old October 5, 2012, 03:36 PM   #21
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a 500 round brick of bulk 22 lr is considered a "well supplied arsenal".

just owning a pressure canner, or canning jars, makes you a "survivalist". heck, just knowing not to use certain leaves as toilet paper in the forest makes you a 'survivalist".
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Old October 5, 2012, 05:51 PM   #22
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Obviously no one here knows the facts or what other evidence there might be. The point however, was, the public "evidence" like the undercover videos taken by the informant, in my opinion do not show "paramilitary training"

I also highly doubt that a handful of people were planning to shoot up a government building in hopes to start a race war.

What I've seen so far is a group of people shooting on their land like many of us do. The only difference here is these people have views that many dont agree with.

Also keep in mind when there is an informant involved there are lies. These informants need to make a case so they can make good on their deals to lessen their own sentences.
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Old October 5, 2012, 06:40 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkmills88
...The point however, was, the public "evidence" like the undercover videos taken by the informant, in my opinion do not show "paramilitary training"...
But there almost certainly a lot more than the "public evidence." So it's pretty much a waste of time debating or discussing the "public evidence" when what will really count is the stuff we don't and can't know.
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Old October 5, 2012, 07:00 PM   #24
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Frank, you are absolutely correct. That is why I keep telling people to stop issuing conclusions about the Martin case. We just don't know all the facts and the evidence.
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Old October 5, 2012, 08:20 PM   #25
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One should read http://www.amazon.com/Lone-Wolf-Terr.../dp/0826518559

There are documented cases of individuals or small groups who do plan small attacks for religious, racial, ecoterrorist, left wing, right wing or messages from Mars reasons.
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