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Old April 1, 2012, 10:37 AM   #51
FireForged
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The point of a fast draw is not speed for its own sake. It's simply that if you do need your gun, you have no way to know in advance how much time you'll have in which to put it to use.
A 80year old man can draw a weapon in (2) seconds. My point is that IMO, the speed factor is not likely to be a primary consideration in most gun fights. It will be in "some" cases and it has been in others... My thinking is that if I need a weapon- then i need it. I wont be considering a timed draw time vs- how fast a person can transverse 26 feet. If I am thinking about that then I am probably not in life threatening danger. If a person is inside my reactionary gap and can likely get to me before I get to my weapon, It doesnt mean that I am not going to try anyway. I practice a clean draw in every type of clothing that I wear, speed however- is not a primary consideration. Again, this is just my thought and I share them for friendly debate and not to criticize anyone.
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Old April 1, 2012, 10:48 AM   #52
MLeake
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DNS, your math was trucking right along until the free fall thing...

The velocity of the object (in vacuum) would be 32fps after 1 sec, but the distance traveled would be 16ft.

A = 32
V = 32 x T
D = 1/2 V x (T squared)

Generally, though, we aren't attacked by free falling objects in vacuum.

Your other points were good.

People should probably practice defensive movement at least as much as fast draw. There are many more scenarios where defensive movement might be applicable.
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Old April 1, 2012, 07:51 PM   #53
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I cannot imagine a situation where I would need to draw my gun in self defense and wish that my draw was slower.
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Old April 4, 2012, 12:29 PM   #54
kflo01
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Under 2 seconds

I have a video of myself doing this drill. 2 shots to center mass target was about 7 yards out.

http://youtu.be/UsEtgG-Fx1A

I had a long sleeve pullover sweater on and the gun was in a kydex belt holster. I wore it the way I would have in the real world. Both shots were combat accurate, not 1" groups. Thry were slightly larger than a fist or more like a open hand. I have been shooting for just a year now. when that was taking about 10 months of pistol shooting. So I def think if your doing this drill not from concealment you can get off maybe 3 to 4 shots of.
I watch the Magpul guys do this drill and get of 4 shots in under 2 seconds with the gun covered. Thats were I want to get my skills to. Right now 2 shots in under 2 seconds with the gun concealed I will take that for now and be happy and build on it.
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Old April 4, 2012, 12:53 PM   #55
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In the IPSC Black Badge Course, you will not pass unless you can draw & fire two rounds at 7 yards in 2 seconds. You must be able to do this 6 times. Seems that even unclassified below class D shooters must past more stringent firearm skills tests than you peace enforcement folks. Funny that.
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Old April 4, 2012, 01:06 PM   #56
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Seems that even unclassified below class D shooters must past more stringent firearm skills tests than you peace enforcement folks. Funny that.
No Sir, I think that's sad.
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Old April 4, 2012, 01:16 PM   #57
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kraigwy, I meant "funny" as in strange.

It's not to say that a all police officers aren't interested in shooting. A tiny minority of officers in our own city are engaged in the sport, and are darn good at it. But seeing many of our police officers shoot the first time as IPSC black badge hopefuls or just in range practice makes me seriously worry about the safety of innocents when these people attempt to shoot the bad guys on the street.
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Old April 4, 2012, 02:00 PM   #58
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Well, how many policemen see their jobs as shooting? Keep in mind that the more who think it is, they more people here will be complaining.
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Old April 4, 2012, 02:15 PM   #59
dayman
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Comparing cops to competitive shooters is like comparing me - a guy who often has to lift heavy objects at work - to a competitive strong man.
Or better yet, comparing an average Officer to a trained psychologist - as I'm pretty sure they spend more time calming people down than they do drawing their guns.
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Old April 4, 2012, 06:07 PM   #60
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Let me clarify. This is a video demonstrating exactly what I consider a good draw and fire.
It's a video that doesn't address real world drawing from concealment and hitting a target at close quarters. I try to maintain hitting the target in 1.5 seconds from the timer. It's always tempting to remove my coat, jacket, or vest and improve my time, but that doesn't serve me very well.

After a few draws, my time can be down to 1.2 or 1.3. The longest is about 2 seconds. Admittedly, I should practice more, and might get down to the 1 sec. mark, though probably not on demand.


For CCW practice, I believe one should practice draw and ready as well as draw and fire, and from ready and fire. If all we practice is draw and fire, we might be training ourselves to be robots in a SD situation where drawing is appropriate, but firing isn't.
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Old April 4, 2012, 07:06 PM   #61
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Well, how many policemen see their jobs as shooting? Keep in mind that the more who think it is, they more people here will be complaining.
There are many facets to being an effective peace officer. Using judgement and tactics in such a way to prevent having to use lethal force in the first place is probably among the most crucial - something that neighborhood watch folk who CCW in Florida are obviously less trained at. I sincerely appreciate the work that the police do and the sacrifices that they choose to make in order to make us safer.

However in light of a few recent deaths due to police missing the bad guy and hitting innocents in this country along with my anecdotal experience of witnessing the skills of officers qualified to carry and use a duty arm, I just wish their standards were a bit higher. I'm not expecting them to be competitive shooters, but I would prefer to see them pass at least the equivalent of a 3 day Black Badge Course for newbie 16 year olds. That includes being able to draw and shoot 2 shots within 2 seconds at 7 yards and hit A's and B's.
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Old April 5, 2012, 04:57 AM   #62
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Think twice, draw once.
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Old April 5, 2012, 11:21 AM   #63
Madcap_Magician
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Originally Posted by kraigwy
Where the victim has the advantage is in Surprise. Bandits don't expect victims to carry and resist. If they thought their victim was armed, they would choose some one else. It takes time for the bandit to register the fact his victim is responding before he starts (if he does) his dash toward the victom........that would cover your .5 to 1.5 draw time.
That's true, but there's surprise factor on the other side, too. For the most part, victims aren't expecting to be victimized, and even if they've got a hinky feeling, the instant the suspect initiates an attack is still a surprise.
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Old April 5, 2012, 05:33 PM   #64
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Madcap,
I believe you will find kraigwy's position state here where he believes that being held at gunpoint means you have the advantage, yet strangely officers and CCW people still have their guns up when dealing with bad people.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ight=advantage

Quote:
That's true, but there's surprise factor on the other side, too. For the most part, victims aren't expecting to be victimized, and even if they've got a hinky feeling, the instant the suspect initiates an attack is still a surprise.
I don't know that it is surprise as much as it is an unwillingness for so many people to not want to harm another person. Take the vid here...
http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot...fe-around.html

From the sounds of the video, the cop had exited his car and given the commands he was issueing (with others) before Spencer exited his vehicle, the cops would have had their guns draw after the prolonged chase. Yet for various reasons, they did not even begin to fire at the stumbling and spastic Spencer until it was too late. Why they would have hesitated could be for many reasons, but I would be inclined to believe that it had to do with recognition of the situation, realizing that Spencer wasn't attempting to flee on foot but was armed with a knife and running to attack officers. These officers had their guns out, but were not actually prepared to fire.

In other words, for the Tueller drill at least two of the first three steps of the OODA Loop sequence are accomplished before the drill starts. These officers had to go through all 4 again before firing and probably lost considerable time during observation in trying to figure out what the guy was doing (flight v. attack) and then deciding on the course of action.

Observe
Orient
Decide
Act

The attackee is just waiting on the que to be Observed to start to react be. He is already Oriented before the drill starts and has already reached the decision that he would draw and fire when que'd.

In this example, the bad guy covered 22 feet. On one of the forums, I read that the shooter was a trainee, but with considerable combat experience in Afghanistan. Of course, all the other cops present weren't trainees. The video does show some of the shock in the trainee's voice about having shot the guy.

We have run kraigwy's in various ways. The person drawing on the drawn gun is the one that tend's to die the most.
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Old April 6, 2012, 11:04 PM   #65
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ouch.

I decided to spend about 45 - 15 sets of 3 - rounds practicing, and then time my draw/fire with my EDC BG380.
About 2.5 sec from 4:00 under the shirt to an enormous 8" 3 shot group @ about 12'... not good.
Also, I apparently push my groups about 4" to the left @ 12' when I don't aim.
Lets go ahead and blame the long DA trigger (the reason I chose the gun).

So, that sucked, but it did give me specifics to work on, so I do feel like it gave me some focus. And focus is a good thing.

I think this might be a fun problem to work on.
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Old April 7, 2012, 01:16 PM   #66
Claude Clay
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in the real world the very last thing you want to do is fire a bullet into another person. but we practice just that---and doing it fast cause in the real world events may be out of our hands. all that one does to anticipate, being aware, deseculating....whatever...it has all failed and you must use the gun.

so it may be an event which unfolds over time resulting in your having to draw...well, why do you not have a j-frame in your offside vest or coat pocket and it has your hand on it and it is already pointed at the BG's belly, crotch area. draw time is -0-
i am going to carry to defend against those who are conspiring to cause me grave harm-- than i am not playing a game of how fast i can draw, rather how fast i can disengage.

im calm cause concealed im in control, though he does not know it. perhaps than i may let my cover garment open enough to expose my strong side gun to him. his reaction is (up to now has been) to leave. if it is anything otherwise he will discover my weak hand.

in practice and training , from concealment to 1st shot under 2 seconds is competent; getting in under 1.5 seconds is very good. the timer is useful to measure your improvements. and lets you know when you are approaching as good as you get.

but having some throw down money and knowing how fast you can run is useful also.
useful and potentially a lot less expensive than the court costs a fired bullet may incur
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Old April 8, 2012, 05:55 AM   #67
Nnobby45
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So, that sucked, but it did give me specifics to work on, so I do feel like it gave me some focus. And focus is a good thing.

I think this might be a fun problem to work on.
Yes, and if the focus is on the front sight, then your sights will be on target when the shot breaks, and your groups will shrink a whole bunch. SEE the F. sight on the target for each rapid fire shot.

What you work on is to shrink your groups to about the size of your hand, which will cut your 8" groups in half. Don't shoot groups that are too small, because that means you are taking more time than you need, or that you need to move the target out a little farther.
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Old April 8, 2012, 09:02 PM   #68
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One facet of being a police is being able to draw effectively with a Level 2 or Level 3 retention holster. I believe the majority of all LEOs nowadays open carry with a Level 2 holster. If you are a non-LEO open carrier, then you too should use at least a Level 2 retention holster if you are not doing so already.

1.5 seconds to click off one shot and 2 seconds to click off two shots into reasonable sized targets at a certain distance seems like the standard.
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