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Old March 7, 2012, 12:28 PM   #26
sigcurious
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I don't get to practice from a holster, so FWIW. In your scenario, which as I understand it is an attacker rushing from ~30ft. The video is not exactly a good comparison, hitting a target at a distance would be different from hitting someone who is now standing right in front of you.

IMO a better comparison would be setting a target at maybe a 1-3 yards as that would approximate the distance of the rushing attacker after reacting and drawing. I'm pretty sure most of the guys and gals here who get to practice this kind of stuff would make good hits at that range under the same constraints. I'd also guess aimed fire might go out the door in favor of point shooting in the scenario and at a much shorter range than ~30ft.
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Old March 7, 2012, 01:04 PM   #27
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CaptainObvious

I'd recommend you take in and observe a Steel Challenge, or other action pistol match. I think you'd be supprised.

The video you showed was simular to a steel match, normaly you shoot five 8-12 inch plates, the 5th being a stop plate, from the holster and surrender position. Plates are normally 30 feet.

That's much different then drawing and hitting a bandit target at 3 yards or so.
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Old March 7, 2012, 10:18 PM   #28
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To draw and fire an aimed shot at 30 feet in 1.5 seconds is not bad. Like kraig indicates, where draw speed actually counts is up close and personal. If it comes to that you have already failed and are trying to play catch up with an aggressor. Part of our qualification (USBP) was 3 shots in 2 seconds at 3 yards. From my level 3 retention holster I routinely did it at 1 second or less.
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Old March 9, 2012, 12:00 AM   #29
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1.5 sec is a LONG TIME. My fastest draw and fire (FBI "Q" head shot at 3 yards) is 0.86 from t-shirt concealment out of an open top kydex holster. That was draw, press out, and fire at near full extention. And I wouldn't consider myself a super fast "quickdraw" guy.

Heck, Dave Sevigny holds the record on the Pistol-Training.com FAST drill with 2 head shots (3x5 box), a reload, and 4 shots into a 8" circle at 7 yards in 3.64 seconds. He could probably draw and dump a magazine in 1.5 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU3jceN4JAc

Another one... Todd Green from concealment on a reduced size target at 20 yards in 1.45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaCIs...eature=related

Granted, these are world class shooters, but I don't consider to be a 1.5 hit on target anywhere within 10 yards to be "fast".
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Old March 9, 2012, 05:29 PM   #30
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In Steel Challenge matches, I often see shooters on the “Smoke & Hope” stage draw and miss the 1st target (18X24” at 9 yds) in under a second. The shooters who get hits are usually running around 1 – 1.5 seconds. There are faster shooters, but they’re usually shooting “Open” guns from competition holsters. The ones shooting in USPSA or IDPA classes are doing well to beat 1.5 sec. I’m not talking about the local champs, I’m talking about the above-average, serious amateur.

On the stages where the 1st target is smaller and further away, times increase dramatically. Add in having to draw from a concealment holster during a surprise attack, and all bets are off.
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Old March 10, 2012, 05:27 AM   #31
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So here's another chance to plug the concept of learning some basic hand to hand skills, specifically skills at evading and/or redirecting a physical attack, in order to gain space and time to draw and shoot.

The difference between a trained person and the typical person is that if one charges a well-trained person, the well-trained person should get out of the way virtually as a matter of conditioned reflex.
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Old March 10, 2012, 05:44 AM   #32
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In a real situation you can start the timer with my hand already on the grip. I don't walk around in condition white and there's no such thing as a fair fight to the death... Don't blink or you'll miss it.
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Old March 10, 2012, 06:18 AM   #33
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I am 62. Standing at 5 yards on snow and ice, hands at my sides and wearing a 1911 OWB under an unzipped heavy winter coat, I can get two aimed A-zones in 1.6 seconds using a random delay on my timer.

My thought is that situational awareness is of somewhat more value to me than speed.

Cooper wrote that no draw is as fast as the one that's unexpected, so I use Gomer Pyle as my role model: "Surprise, surprise, surprise!" I've only had to draw a concealed firearm once for real. They were surprised.
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Old March 10, 2012, 07:49 AM   #34
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This is a really great training tool to use to time yourself on draw, presentation and dry fire at home utilizing your computer monitor. As always, make sure your gun is unloaded and cleared before doing this unless you just enjoy buying monitors. I use the small targets as they pop up in random areas so you don't get conditioned to just aiming for the center. The various targets are on the right side and they have a variety of delay and visibility options to choose from.

http://www.personaldefensetraining.c.../DryfireDrills
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Old March 10, 2012, 10:33 PM   #35
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Jim Zumbelina IPSC shooter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMFM8SeW51E
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Old March 12, 2012, 12:13 AM   #36
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On Shooting USA's Impossible Shots, Jerry Miculek drew from the buzzer, transitioned his revolver from his strong to his weak hand and fired two shots left-handed on a silhouette target. Elapsed time from the buzzer to the second shot was 0.98 seconds.
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Old March 19, 2012, 10:54 PM   #37
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Ready, set, go!

Rapid motor skills can be obtained. With training, you can perform neat tricks.

Just make sure that in real life you pick the correct scenario for your skill. So if a baddy gets the drop on you because you're holding a greasy Burger King food tray contemplating a Mr. Pibb, kindly ask him for a duel where your fast draw is sure to bring you victory!
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Old March 20, 2012, 07:53 AM   #38
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Here's the thing, my fat butt can cross a substantial distance and knock someone out before they can get to and use their CCW weapon. That is why it is so critical for you to understand the dynamics of a use of force situation. Most people stand there flat footed drawing their weapon, simply a deer in the headlights.

You have to be able to move, get out of his line of power. Get something between you that he has to go around. The ability to use physical force, to keep your area clear, to use his force against him is absolutely critical.

Then there is nothing more than eye contact. I don't know how many times I've had inmates slip up on me, and I'm thinking to do no good, only to back down when I looked at them. Criminals can do blitz attacks, but mostly they are sneaky. Simply knowing that they have lost the element of surprise is enough to deter them. Being lost in your thoughts, or walking around looking at the ground is like a sheep feeding on grass.

But, watch the level of eye contact as a simple look taken too long can be interpenetrated as a challenge.
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Old March 21, 2012, 01:44 PM   #39
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I wanted to wait until I got to the range to post anything here.

I can draw from concealment and fire in about a second. The .357 is a tad faster, the .45 slower. Even better, I did some drills I hadn't done for a few year, and did a sidestep while I was drawing, and that worked out well. I put the first shot from both exactly where I wanted them consistently.

To me, you only need to look at 10 yard splits to understand this thread. If a pro football player can do a 1.5 sec split (stop to first 10 yards of a 40) it is not unreasonable in my mind to think that you could see someone on the street capable of that or something close to it. I would hope that it wouldn't ever get that close.
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Old March 29, 2012, 12:22 PM   #40
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From Captain Obvious: This guy made it in about 1.5 seconds. So, using this method, how can you get it down to under 1 second?
Practice. With a timer.

One of the secrets to learning something is knowing that it can be done. The US guarded the secret of the atomic bomb in WW ll -- al long as our enemies thought it was impossible, their efforts to create one were less intense.

The fellow in your example video is slow by today's competition standards. Pick better examples, and try to emulate them.
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Old March 29, 2012, 12:46 PM   #41
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Dave Anderson ~

Good post!

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Old March 31, 2012, 09:58 AM   #42
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I think a 1.5 second draw is a minimum standard from an open carry with retention device (thumb snap or other) at 7 yards with good torso hit. The mechanics involve raising the pistol to eye level and actually seeing the front sight before squeezing. From my experience it seems that the average trained persons (LEO for example) can get between the 1 second and 1.5 second mark with practice. Something right around one second following the same mechanics is what I would call above average. One half to three quarters of second is very fast.
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Old March 31, 2012, 12:20 PM   #43
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Just a tidbit about fast draws.

Glenn Ford, the actor is considered one of the fastest in Hollywood.

On the average he draws and fires at 4/10ths of a second.

All it takes is a bit of practice.
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Old March 31, 2012, 12:48 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by kraigwy View Post
Just a tidbit about fast draws.

Glenn Ford, the actor is considered one of the fastest in Hollywood.

On the average he draws and fires at 4/10ths of a second.

All it takes is a bit of practice.
Maybe shooting from the hip without aiming.

TGO (Rob Leatham) draws from a Production division legal holster, shooting A zone on a 20yrd target in just over 1.1sec with a XDm 5.25 in 9mm. Just watched a practice drill vid with him, he said he was pushing it some but didn't want to sacrifice hitting A zone on the far target.
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Old March 31, 2012, 01:01 PM   #45
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In reference to the 1.5 seconds, draw and fire. I think you are giving a bit more time then needed. In that, both in training and qualification, we are required to fire 2 rounds in 2 seconds from locked holster (all levels of retention engaged) and there is still what seems like, at least to me, 1 second left after the 2 rounds are fired. Im not a fast shot either, but with training, practice, proper motivation (losing my job if I dont qualify) it is not that big of an issue.
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Old March 31, 2012, 03:57 PM   #46
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I would love to see a video with a shot timer of some of these alleged 0.50 second draws.
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Old March 31, 2012, 06:29 PM   #47
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I would love to see a video with a shot timer of some of these alleged 0.50 second draws.
Me too.

I was practicing for the Steel Challenge Nationals a few days ago with my Ruger 22/45. On the Smoke and Hope stage, I was getting first round hits in 0.4 to 0.45 sec. Keep in mind that’s with a .22 from the low-ready position on an 18X24 inch target about 9 yds away. Dave Sevigny, who ought to know what he’s talking about, thought that was pretty damn quick.

There are lots of tales of guys getting 1st round hits in under a second from concealment. Talk’s cheap. Let’s see the videos with timers running.
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Old March 31, 2012, 06:52 PM   #48
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I am not inclined to believe that even 10% of armed confrontations boil down to speed of draw determining the victor. That being said, I see nothing wrong with someone practicing...thats always a good thing. Me- personally, I do not worry about time clocks or what the badguys athletic abilities might be. I focus on my abilities and what I am going to do to stop a threat. I have no idea how fast I can draw. I have never drawn a weapon as fast at humanly possible and dont really care. I know that I can draw in a clean and deliberate manner and reholster in the same fashion. If I had to guess, my draw speed is as fast as I feel is responsible and with me, its about 90% of what I could probably do. I respect everyones opinion and I realize that mine is in the minority (as usual).
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Old March 31, 2012, 08:00 PM   #49
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...I am not inclined to believe that even 10% of armed confrontations boil down to speed of draw determining the victor....I focus on my abilities and what I am going to do to stop a threat. I have no idea how fast I can draw. I have never drawn a weapon as fast at humanly possible and dont really care. I know that I can draw in a clean and deliberate manner and reholster in the same fashion...
The point of a fast draw is not speed for its own sake. It's simply that if you do need your gun, you have no way to know in advance how much time you'll have in which to put it to use.

When it comes down to it, it's really not a question of quick draw or fast draw. It's a question of how long it can take us to perceive the threat, determine the need to fire, deploy our gun and engage the threat with accurate fire, having made the decision that shooting is warranted.

So how much time will we have in which to do all of that? I have no idea and neither do you. It's going to all depend on what happens and how it happens. We might have lots of time, or we might have very little. We simply can't know in advance.

If we can't get done what we need to do in the time circumstances allow us, we will not be happy with the outcome. Good training and diligent practice can help reduce the time we need to be able to effectively do what we need to be able to do. And since I can't know how much time I'll have, I'd rather not give up time if I can avoid it.
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Old April 1, 2012, 04:11 AM   #50
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Keep in mind the following. The average human being can sprint over the area of a football field or 100 meters at about 17 mph.
Not exactly. I don't believe anyone runs the area of a football field at 17 mph, but may run its length.

So 17 mph =24.93 fps

When you talkg about a person running the length of a football field, or about 100 meters, what length of field are you talking about? You have the main field and then you have the main field with 10 yard end zones added. At 17 mph...
100 yards 12.03 seconds
120 yards 14.44 seconds
100 meters 13.16 seconds

Quote:
Olympic athletes can get up to over 25 mph. Lets say a human was sprinting at 15 mph. That is 22 feet per second. Therefore, even with the most ideal shooter under the most ideal conditions, at least 33 feet is needed for just one shot to be squeezed off and that shot may not even hit the target.
You have skipped over some critical details. Yes, Olympic sprinters can run over 25 mph, and even faster, but they don't actually reach that speed until after about 60 meters.

Say a human can run 15 mph, or 22 fps and that a human can draw, fire, and hit a target in 1.5 seconds. Contrary to your claim, the attacker will not have to be at least 33 feet away unless you mean to imply that the attacker was already running at full speed when the CCW good guy spotted him. This is almost never the case. The attacker is usually starting from a stationary position.

The magic 1.5 draw, fire, and hit time to which you refer is usually based on shooting targets at distances at several yards and using sights. Shooting a closing target negates the need for skill as the target gets closer and closer, plus requires less movment as the gun doesn't need to be fully drawn and brought up to eye level for sighting shooting.

Also, unless trapped or otherwise back against an obstruction, most people put into a position of having to defend themselves against a charging target will start backing up and/or making a significant lateral move. These measures result in giving the intended victim extra time to respond.
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Last edited by Double Naught Spy; April 3, 2012 at 04:04 PM.
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