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Old March 11, 2012, 10:13 PM   #26
Stooge
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Saying that it's fundamentally OK to carry a gun and use it in defense of one's life, but that it's not OK in a house of worship is implying that there is something inherently evil or wrong with guns and/or using them for protection. Using a gun in self defense is either right in God's eyes. Or wrong. If it's right, it's right everywhere. If it's wrong, it's wrong everywhere.

Where I live, it's legal to carry in church, but you have to have prior permission from the pastor/priest/whoever.
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Old March 12, 2012, 06:01 AM   #27
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Same here.
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Old March 12, 2012, 10:33 AM   #28
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I will use an old quote here, and I wish I could remember the source, but here goes, "...sometimes a shepard needs to take up the stick to defend the flock..."

p.s. I know a rabbi that carries (and teaches Krav Maga) so I find it perfectly normal in a pastor doing likewise.
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Old March 12, 2012, 10:45 AM   #29
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http://www.bible-history.com/links.p...name=Shepherds

Lots of shepards using their staff for protection and other interesting sheep stuff.
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Old March 12, 2012, 11:11 AM   #30
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Pistol Packing Episcopal Priest

I've been a firearms enthusiast since I was 7 years old, I've legally carried for 20 years and I'm an avid hunter. However, as a clergy person, I generally avoid mentioning the CCW because of the heartburn it seems to cause some folks.

Blessings to you my friend in your pursuits, life and ministry!
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Old March 12, 2012, 11:24 AM   #31
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It's interesting to note that Roman Catholic doctrine supports self defense. From the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church(footnotes omitted):
Quote:
Legitimate defense

2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."...

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:
If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's....
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility....
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Old April 27, 2012, 05:29 PM   #32
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Thanks, good quote.
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Old April 27, 2012, 08:22 PM   #33
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Quote:
The greatest gift we are all given by the Great A[r]chitect is our own lives.
I would have thought the soul would get that honor.
Quote:
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Quote:
It's interesting to note that Roman Catholic doctrine supports self defense.
Try carrying a gun at the Vatican. Mother church has been pro-gun control for many years.

If this is a doctrinal question, why not send it up to whatever convocation of elders makes that call?
If the answer comes back in your favor fine. If it doesn't then do what religious folks have done for centuries, split off from the church and form your own sect.

Once someone invokes the "god is on my side" argument you'd think they'd carry it to its logical conclusion.
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Old April 27, 2012, 08:30 PM   #34
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And yet, Buzzcook, the Vatican still employs the Swiss Guards. They have breastplates and halberds for show, but their personnel also have pistols, SMGs, and rifles.

So it would seem the Pope and the College of Cardinals must believe there is something to self-defense... but only if they control it.

Kind of like the government higher-ups who have their own security details, or who have carry permits although their constituents may not be able to get same.
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Old April 27, 2012, 08:55 PM   #35
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MLeake: Apparently all bureaucracies evolve to the same control apparatus.
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Old April 28, 2012, 07:50 AM   #36
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Interesting...
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Old May 2, 2012, 08:13 AM   #37
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When I was in Lutheran Sunday school way back in the day, we had a pastor from Sweden who was a committed pacifist and against gun possession in all of its forms. She often forgot the cases of Martin Luther King and Ghandi, both committed pacifists who met their respective ends due to the gun. I left Christianity and have not had any contact with the Lutheran church for a number of years. Is a pacifist viewpoint part of Lutheran doctrine as a whole or is it up to individual pastors and church members to reach their own conclusions? At the time I was in the Lutheran church, I was still a teenager and not really inclined to investigate such questions.
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Old May 2, 2012, 08:42 AM   #38
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No sir, pacifism is most certainly not part of historic, genuine Lutgeranism, I would be happy to private message you on this
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Old May 2, 2012, 04:02 PM   #39
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Quote:
genuine Lutgeranism
Do you mean Lutheranism or Lugeranism?

The latter would seem to support gun rights.

Sorry -
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Old May 2, 2012, 06:20 PM   #40
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On a historical note...

... at one time, the leading political figure among Lutherans was Gustavus Adolphus.

He was one of the more enlightened monarchs of the era, but he was no pacifist. He was one of the best strategists in history, but he died while leading a cavalry charge.
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Old May 2, 2012, 10:51 PM   #41
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Actually, Gustavus Adophus was an orthodox Lutheran who was a military genius. He perfected the use of artillery in battle.

He died defending his faith.
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Old May 2, 2012, 11:20 PM   #42
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We are straying quite a bit off the track of "why a paster carries."

Just a reminder.
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Old May 3, 2012, 07:38 AM   #43
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Good post. Church is a place just like any other place, which means unfortunately that it is subject to the same types of crime as anywhere else. In fact, I dare say if things continue as they are with society being indoctrinated to have such a negative view of Christianity, I wouldn't be surprised to see more criminals targeting churches with violence.

Glad to see a Pastor, not afraid to shepherd his flock, and shepherds by definition are supposed to "protect" their flock.
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Old May 5, 2012, 06:05 AM   #44
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Doug,

I agree with your assertion in part. I understand that many Christians feel that the larger society is being indoctrinated against them. I also think you and I could identify many of the same cases involving homicidal violence at churches. However, the Christian faith is not the only one in the United States to have its institutions targeted by violence. If one is to support the notion of a Christian pastor being armed to defend his congregants, must he also support the 2nd Amendment rights of those from other faiths? Here is some info on incidents of violence at institutions of various religious groups.

Phoenix area mass killing at a Buddhist temple:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/c...ple/index.html

arson attacks on NYC Islamic centers:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16387576

My initial Google search failed to locate any information on fatal incidents at Islamic centers within the US, but a number of arsons and attempted bombings have occurred. It is only a matter of time before a fatal act of violence is directed at a Muslim institution.

well-known attack on a Jewish community center:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Ang...enter_shooting

Bear in mind that the examples I have cited only occurred in the United States. One can find countless other stories of attacks on places of worship belonging to all faiths all over the world.
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Old May 7, 2012, 09:57 AM   #45
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Let us not discuss why religion X or Y is being treated as A or B. The issue is clear that religious institutions are not immune from critical incidents. Thus, the state should not ban carry on the grounds that such places are somehow sacred. That is specific ploy by antigunners to appeal to emotion (OH, dear - guns in my religious place?).

If the religious place wants to be victimized one can argue that it is their choice as compared to the states.

Now, I'm not in favor of any publicly open institution being able to ban lwith force of law but that is a different issue.
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Old May 7, 2012, 10:23 AM   #46
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Martin Luther King and Ghandi were (presumably) pacifists and accomplished their goals through passive resistance, irrespective of how they met their ends.
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Old May 7, 2012, 10:39 AM   #47
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The ministry in early America helped to lay down the seeds of liberty. We refer to the Bill of Rights as god given or natural rights. Peter Muhlenberg was one of those in the ministry. The Black Robed Brigade as the British referred to them
helped to plant those seeds of liberty. It seems that some of the religious institutions have gone the opposite way in today's world.
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Old May 7, 2012, 11:58 AM   #48
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It's funny, you know. The clergy in the colonies were members of established churches. In passing the constitution, they disestablished themselves. However, the 18th century was not the age of religion, it was the age of reason.
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Old May 7, 2012, 12:22 PM   #49
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I never expected to see a thread like this one on the forum, but it was a pleasant surprise to me. My half brother who's 10 years my junior and better educated than I am, converted from Lutheran to Russian Orthodox at the age of 16, which is my faith. I always had the devil on my shoulder growing up and maybe that's why I went into LE.

My brother on the other hand wouldn't hurt a fly and eventually became a Russian Orthodox priest, church and all, including a wife and three kids. One son by the way is currently in Special Forces. He's also the FD chaplin. But the odd thing is my brother's a postmaster as well and is also licensed to carry. I'm sure he doesn't carry at work though I have while visiting him. I'm still a very bad boy. He's a man who wears many hats.

I guess my love of guns and westerns as a kid rubbed off on him, but thank GOD he didn't turn out like me. I never spoke about my brother before, but I guess it's nice to have a brother like that, besides he gave my partner plenty of holy water to rid, to a certain extent, his vacation home of unwanted guests.
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Old May 7, 2012, 01:17 PM   #50
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Skirting close to discussing religion. Countdown started.

One more off-topic post and lights out and you get dinged!
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