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Old March 5, 2012, 07:31 PM   #1
Amsdorf
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Why a Pastor Carries

I’m so used to firearms and enjoying shooting them and using them legally, as per the Second Amendment, that I’m always genuinely puzzled when people are surprised, puzzled, offended, angered and in some cases, yes, outraged, to learn I do take full advantage of the rights I have as a US Citizen, including the right to…well, you know…keep and bear…arms. I also bare arms when the weather allows, but that is another post.

The point is that as a Christian, I know that God has given my reason and all my senses. Using that reason and those senses, there is nothing wrong with defending oneself from those who would kill or do bodily injury to me, my family and friends, and neighbors. “Turning the other cheek” is not about legitimate self-defense, but about accepting persecution precisely because of the fact that you are confessing your Faith. Some Christian pacifists do not, and refuse to, understand this point.

Furthermore, as a Lutheran I believe that the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” is about murdering, not killing in legitimate self-defense or defending others, for as we Lutherans explain that commandment we teach that we are to do nothing to hurt or harm our neighbor in his body, but rather help and befriend him in every bodily need or danger to his life and body. That’s pretty straightforward self and explains why I carry.

So, here's a video I made explaining why, and what, I carry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WfxkafoA80

Last edited by Amsdorf; March 6, 2012 at 01:22 PM.
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Old March 5, 2012, 08:21 PM   #2
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Amsdorf,

Thank You for reposting your thread.

The thought of someone thinking/insinuating a pastor or christian shouldn't be concerned about defending themselves or loved ones has always puzzled me.

With three ministers in my immediate family(all of which have their ccl's) as well as a few very close/longtime friends whom are ministers as well, I can say for certain, Pastors and Christians bleed just like non-believers. Too, are subject to the same BG's out on the street as anyone else. And amazingly their houses get broke into by the same burglars/rapist meaning to do them harm.

Story Time:

I worked with a great guy(I'll call him Ed, that was his name) that was a Christian. A quite fella, that I don't believe I ever heard him say a bad word towards anyone. I brought a ccl application in to another guy and Ed was standing there when I gave it to him.
Ed was later asking me about cc and another jerk(I'll call Andy cause that's his name also ) spoke up and snidely commented , "if you were such a good Christian, you shouldn't need a gun".

Ed looked at Andy, smiled and politely said "you probably don't think I need to go to the doctor or dentist either...do you".

Moral of the story, GOD gave man a brain to go through life. He gave us the intelligence to invent complicated hospital devices/operations to stay alive. He also gave us the intel. to invent the gun to keep the BG at bay.
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Old March 5, 2012, 10:58 PM   #3
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One day President Teddy Roosevelt was sitting in church when apparently the butt of his pistol was sticking out the back of his pants. The woman sitting behind him saw it and took offense. He was also unapologetic.

I carry at church because you never know if a disturbed individual or angry ex-husband is going to walk in with a shotgun. Our sound guy has been seen wearing some very pro-second amendment shirts, and our pastor is a retired Army officer who has been known to take congregation members out to the range. So I doubt I'm alone; and that's good to know.
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Old March 5, 2012, 11:22 PM   #4
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I was saddened to see the ELCA throw their unconditional support behind the Brady Bill in 1993. Many of us thought it was outside the mission of the church, and we didn't like the sentiment behind it one bit.

My own pastor supports the RKBA, but he's mentioned he's in the minority. Has the church softened its stance on gun control at all, and if not, is the possibility of being "outed" an issue?
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Old March 6, 2012, 06:45 AM   #5
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One small church where I live had a Pastor that took a second part time job as a County Sheriff Deputy juvenile officer. His thought was he wanted to work with kids and try to help them out.
The congregation asked him to resign as Pastor because he carried a gun on his second part time job as deputy Sheriff.
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Old March 6, 2012, 08:07 AM   #6
Johannes_Paulsen
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Welcome, Amsdorf. You don't need to justify yourself to me -- human rights do not require such pre-emptive explanations or justifications.

I think that if someone has difficulty reconciling the right to personal self-defense with their preferred religion or philosophy, that's a sign that their religion or philosophy probably needs to be reconsidered.
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Old March 6, 2012, 09:43 AM   #7
Mike38
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I have small signs on the three doors to my home. All it says is “Ex. 22:2”

Exodus 22:2
“If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.”
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Old March 6, 2012, 09:59 AM   #8
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Great video. I am glad to hear when preachers are for the 2nd Amendment.
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Old March 6, 2012, 11:21 AM   #9
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Many members of my church support RKBA. I shoot with some, and one of the deacons has a very nice range in one of his out-buildings; others would be horrified by the thought of carrying in church, esp by the Pastor.

I have discussed this many times with christian friends, including several who are pastors. There are compelling arguments to be made on both sides based on Biblical interpretation IMO. I think the teachings of Christ support my right to keep and bear arms, others do not; some do, but don't think that right allows for carrying weapons in God's house. Augustine's quote, (he may not be the original source, but that is another discussion) "unity in necessary things; liberty in doubtful things; charity in all things" is relevant here. RKBA is certainly not a requirement for salvation, and is therefore one of those issues where charity is required IMO.

Pastor I enjoyed your video, and think you make a well reasoned argument for carrying. The only concern I have is your statement that you aren't too interested in hearing the opinions of those who disagree with you. It is only with patience and understanding that you will be able to change the minds of those who disagree with you. Peace brother.
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Old March 6, 2012, 01:23 PM   #10
Amsdorf
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Made an addition to my initial comments in this thread, FWIW, adding a bit of commentary about the Fifth Commandment.
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Old March 6, 2012, 05:26 PM   #11
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Quote:
There are compelling arguments to be made on both sides based on Biblical interpretation IMO.
K_Mac - what are the justifications for the arguments you've found to be strong on the other side, just out of curiosity?
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Old March 6, 2012, 06:18 PM   #12
K_Mac
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jpk1187, there are some who would argue that our lives and possessions are but temporal things that do not belong to us, and that Christ never advocated the use of the sword except to defend against Him being taken before the appointed time. The passage below also makes a point:
Christ must be our great example, and he died as an innocent victim in the face of the most outrageous injustice. We should be willing to do the same. Moreover, Christ came to redeem everyone and died on behalf of all people. How can we take the life of someone for whom Christ died, especially those who have not received him as savior? To kill people robs them of the opportunity to accept Christ and know the fullness of life he brings.
Feinberg, J. S., Feinberg, P. D., & Huxley, A. (1996, c1993). Ethics for a Brave new world. Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books.

There are many different points of view among Christians. I would happily discuss all of them over lunch Sunday after church. I don't think this is the place to discuss theology, even where it relates to guns.
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Old March 6, 2012, 06:54 PM   #13
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Quote:
There are many different points of view among Christians.
Yes!

Quote:
but don't think that right allows for carrying weapons in Gods house.
Wherever we're at,we're in Gods house. The reason I especially like to be in the woods.
What we consider 'Gods house' or a church is no more then a building where Christians gather to worship. In other words 'Gods house' could be a garage, someones basement, a backyard, the woods, or any place three or more are gathered.

Just a different point of view.

Last edited by shortwave; March 6, 2012 at 07:08 PM.
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Old March 6, 2012, 08:57 PM   #14
Willie Sutton
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The greatest gift we are all given by the Great Achitect is our own lives.

It would be a sin to not protect this precious treasure with all of the other tools that we have been given, among them both our ability to reason and make decisions and also to be able to form metal into arms.

For another to squander his own precious gift by threatening to remove mine is his choice.
The best way for others to preserve their gift is to not threaten mine.

Ex. 22:2 on the door is a nice greeting!


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Old March 6, 2012, 09:14 PM   #15
langenc
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Back in the 70s there was a sign on our church door for a time--

God, Guns and Guts... Let's keep all three at all costs.
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Old March 6, 2012, 09:19 PM   #16
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Quote:
The greatest gift we are all given by the Great Achitect is our own lives.

I disagree...... I feel that the gift of children, my children, is the greatest blessing given me by God. To fail to protect them, as is my duty as a father, would be the greatest failing I can imagine.

You are entitled to lay down your life for your friends, or even for a stranger ...... you are not entitled to surrender your chidren's lives ..... not while you draw breath.
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Old March 6, 2012, 10:45 PM   #17
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You are entitled to lay down your life for your friends, or even for a stranger ...... you are not entitled to surrender your chidren's lives ..... not while you draw breath.
I agree Jimbob86. I would take or deliver a bullet to protect my family. It is my responsibility to do so.
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Old March 7, 2012, 12:26 AM   #18
Willie Sutton
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Agreed with the above. Well said both of you.

I don't consider my families lives to be any different than my own and my childrens lives to be the ones most precious.

We're all saying the same thing, just in different ways.


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Old March 7, 2012, 12:39 AM   #19
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I think it is amazing how people think it is ok for people to to be able to protect themselves at home and anywhere else but Church. I agree that a Church building is just a building. The true church is the people, and the alter is the heart. I know I would not like for any to perish but I also know that God has placed under my protection a wife and daughter. And we as Christians have our friends we are to do our best to protect as well. And one thing I would like to add is in Old Testament times God ordered complete nations to be wiped out. Not because he is a bad God but because he is just. He knew that the nations that were wiped out would cause several problems. One is polluting God children with harmful beliefs and also he knew that there would be physical attacks as well. Fast forward to New Testament times and see where Jesus never condemned self defense . He spoke against murder and revenge. Also look at the following verse.

Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.


Why would he say if you had no sword to buy one ( speaking to believers)?To me he meant self defense and protecting the flock for those who would do us harm .
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Old March 7, 2012, 09:43 AM   #20
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Quote:
Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Interpretation, (in my opinion) The arms of the times were swords, therefore, God intended man to have the right to keep and bear arms.
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Old March 10, 2012, 09:03 AM   #21
Amsdorf
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Thanks for the comments and interesting discussion.
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Old March 10, 2012, 09:32 AM   #22
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike38 View Post
Interpretation, (in my opinion) The arms of the times were swords, therefore, God intended man to have the right to keep and bear arms.
Indeed, and there are verses specific to self defense....
Exodus 22:2-3

And several that imply such, including the above from Luke and also Proverbs 25:26 and others if I wasn't to lazy to look them up.
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Old March 10, 2012, 01:28 PM   #23
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^^^and one in the book of Matthews I heard the other night quoted by Kathryn Hepburn to John Wayne in the movie 'Rooster Cogburn'.

Love that movie.
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Old March 10, 2012, 05:35 PM   #24
Amsdorf
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Thanks for the comments, keep 'em coming. I need all the ammo I can get, so to speak.

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Old March 10, 2012, 07:46 PM   #25
Glenn E. Meyer
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Not from a religious point of view, but a recent law book from Oxford Press, clearly analyzes the rationale for self-defense in Western law.

Killing in Self Defense (at Amazon) - pricey and dense but it clearly argues how the right to life trumps other rights. And that the right to protect yours is justified as an attacker than knowningly attacks you, lessens their own life's value and thus is not as worthy to preserve.

Interesting analyses also of whether you can kill to save yourself against the accidental killer or those not in their right mind (not to divert).

So if a person is pulling down a string of mountain climbers, can you cut their rope?

If a policeman accidentally identifies you as a bad guy when you charge in the mall to intervene in a rampage and is going to shoot, is it legit to shoot the officer?

Or should you sacrifice yourself?

In the first case, you make the terrible choice to save more lives. In the second, would a good person sacrifice themselves rather than take the life of the innocent but mistaken officer?
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