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Old March 6, 2012, 01:31 PM   #26
rickyrick
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Well, he is black has some red tips. Looking at his teeth and hoofs he has spent most of his life, if not all, in a soft soil area. Out further west their hoofs are worn more and most of the cutters broken from the rocky soil. Most of my pigs don't even have the crust.

That looks like many of the pigs I encounter, but I'm no expert on the domestic origins like Hogdogs is.

I call em black, red, brown, polky dotted, black with big white stripe and so on LOL....

The all red ones seem to me to be closest to what folks call Russian. The piglets of the all red ones are mean little bootyholes, to a point of being comical.

That completes my knowledge of pig lineage. LOL . There are far better experts on pig lineage than me on this forum.
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Old March 6, 2012, 02:05 PM   #27
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They really don't have Russian in them they pretty much revert back to thier natural state.
Rick..will feral hogs at some point..revert back into an animal that looks just like their Euopean/Asian cousins? If so..how long will it take?

U said this..so I asked this.../\/\/\
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Old March 6, 2012, 03:26 PM   #28
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Time for some high speed LEAD POISON.

Thats what we call a piney wood rooter S.GA .

Last edited by BIG P; March 6, 2012 at 08:40 PM.
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Old March 6, 2012, 03:29 PM   #29
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I'm making assumptions based on my own observance of wild pigs, I read that there is no real difference between European pigs and domestic. The traits were all bred into them.

I see them in all stages, it is my understanding that the appearance depends on how many generations they have been wild. I think hogdogs is more correct. You could have a near Russian population, then here comes a polky dotted sow and screws the whole mess up.
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Old March 6, 2012, 04:24 PM   #30
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LOL..I think U and hogdogs are probably bout right....I am trying to learn more about these hogs....I think our riverbottom hogs have been more remote and seem to carry more euro-traits...while on the other end of the county..there seems to be anything and everything....
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Old March 7, 2012, 08:58 AM   #31
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When you look at Eurasian hogs in their own region, you will see what I call a "more tannish hue" overall. Or you will see a "Bluish" hue overall.

Tipped hairs can be a sign of out crossing but to what??? A red Duroc bred to a black female? A couple generations later of mostly black genes and the black can take back over.

With Eurasian crosses you have to remember that even if the parent was a pure russian, these piglets will be watering down the russian genes if not limited to future breeding with pure russian bloodlines.

So with the very limited population of pure russian DNA donors... and the nearly unlimited number of pigs with anything less than 50% russian genes... You won't get a hog that could pass scientific scrutiny as a "pure eurasian" in our lifetimes if ever.

There are some "indicators" of possible russian bloodlines bred into the feral stock. One is a sneaky little "hybrid tooth"...

http://www.hunting-in-texas.com/learnhogs.htm

Scroll down to the "how old is that pig" to see the tooth.

I have doped up, sewn up, and buried up dogs wrecked by pigs of many colors and sizes... Tooth size be danged, the dog wrecker I worry about is what I call a "teenagger thug punk" sort... Any color but these spanish pigs live up to this real well, about 140-170 pounds not terribly old (hence the teenager), 3/4-1 1/2" teeth... These gems are athletic and know it... they are badazz and they know it and they will turn and fight a dog at the drop of a hat... Their agility and tenacity and downright winning intentions make them badder to me than a 400 pound old warrior hog... He can whoop 'em too but usually he wants to slash the swords and run if possible.

Breed matters naught to me... In fact, if you could keep the eurasian out of the mix, your butchering duty could be easier and tablefare better... We bred these domestic lines for various reason and tuff meat under a thick hide ain't them...

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Old March 7, 2012, 10:36 AM   #32
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All this talk about pig hunting makes me....

JEALOUS! There are not any pigs around here, and as far as I know, they are not much of a problem in any neighboring states. I know it is somewhat self centered, knowing how damaging the hog can be, but I sure wish I had the opportunity to hunt some hog!
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Old March 7, 2012, 11:21 AM   #33
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hogdogs...the hogs that come off my riverbottom place have that hybrid tooth....I will try to post a pic....I even took a pig with that tooth of the place where the black hog pic came from....He had a different look about him and I bleached his skull.....What I understand the boars in europe and asia have some difference in color..appearance..depends on what region....Just as or deer are smaller..the closer U get to the tropics and larger to the north....same with asian boar....
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Old March 7, 2012, 11:35 AM   #34
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Most of ours have the hybrid tooth too. But for the most part ours are either heavy black old spanish blood or any ratio of other european/american domestic lines.

I requested permission to use a fellow hog dogger's pics from louisiana where he seems to have several "pockets" of hogs with HEAVY eurasian traits... When he agrees, I will post to show what I feel is the difference in just a feral domestic and a eurasian predominately...

Brent
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Old March 7, 2012, 12:37 PM   #35
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I don't wish we had hog problems like that up here in NE, but I do wish I had the opportunity to hunt them like you guys do down there... Kind of a double edged sword, I guess. Frankly, I wouldn't care whether they were domestic, eurasian, spanish, or any other stock, just as long as they fit in my smoker
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Old March 7, 2012, 01:15 PM   #36
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These are what I feel exhibit euro traits...

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File Type: jpg euro2.jpg (128.8 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg euro3.jpg (138.4 KB, 38 views)
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Old March 7, 2012, 01:16 PM   #37
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one more...

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Old March 7, 2012, 01:22 PM   #38
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I've had some like those except I haven't seen any with such pronounced hackles or whatever they are called on pigs.

I suspect that Florida has some of the oldest lines in the pigs there.
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Old March 7, 2012, 01:24 PM   #39
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I didn't ask where they were taken I assume Fla or the deep south.
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Old March 7, 2012, 01:27 PM   #40
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Those are all Louisiana hogs... The majority of russian influenced populations are directly related to the "Gentlemen's" hunt clubs of the late 1800's and early 1900's when tycoons were all the rage...

Our Fla population began the day a spanish explorer first unloaded his boat on our beaches...

Florida would have more russian influenced hogs if AC were already common when the tycoons were playin'...

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Old March 7, 2012, 01:40 PM   #41
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Was that last one a fair bit taller on the hoof than your average feral pig?

I remember seeing some like that a Long time ago in Germany. I was taken aback over how tall they were.
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Old March 7, 2012, 05:46 PM   #42
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Hybrid tooth - Bogosity

Quote:
There are some "indicators" of possible russian bloodlines bred into the feral stock. One is a sneaky little "hybrid tooth"...

http://www.hunting-in-texas.com/learnhogs.htm

Scroll down to the "how old is that pig" to see the tooth.
Oh please, hogdogs, not this garbage again. What you are talking about is in no way an indicator of possible Russian blood lines. We went through this in 2009 and it is no more true now than it was then. http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ght=euro+tooth

You brought it up in that thread and I provided you with considerable information on why the presence or absence of the tooth may occur in pigs and it isn't because of being "Russian." It is because the tooth is vestigial, being lost over time genetically.

I seem to recall challenging you to prove that the tooth was an indicator of bloodline and nothing came from that. If you can prove it, it would be a real feather in your cap given it is a trait that nobody in the wildlife, biology, or veternary sciences is aware of and there are a considerable number of publications on domestic, wild and feral hogs.

By the way, have you noticed that the only references to the hybrid tooth all refer back to the same singluar source? What hog expert studied these hogs and made this unique determination? Do you know? Some online sources refer to your link, but your link and others go refence Texasboars.com and that article is found here ... http://www.texasboars.com/articles/aging.html

You get the same pictures and same text referencing the hybrid tooth as being diagnostic and neither source provides any justification as to how the author learned of this purported trait. It is simply stated as if it is fact from an unnamed source.

The claim is...
Quote:
To begin there is one tooth that can distinguish something about a hog. The tooth in the picture to the left is not used in the aging process. Not all hogs will have this tooth. Only Hybrid Wild Boar will have this tooth. Hybrid is a cross breed between domestic hogs and the Eurasian Hog (Russian Boar). Domestic hogs or domestic feral hogs will not have this tooth.
Okay, it won't be present in domestic hog skulls. That is stated as a fact, right? So when you find hogs with this trait, you believe it proves that the hog is "Russian" or "Russian hybrid," right?

Here are domestic hog skulls with the tooth.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...QEwBA&dur=4446
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&s...1t:429,r:6,s:0
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&s...1t:429,r:0,s:0
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&s...t:429,r:3,s:15
http://www.etsy.com/listing/81789603...rofa-domestica
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks...c/pigpage.html

So how is it that all these domestic hogs have this tooth? The article says they won't have them. Well the article is WRONG. Texasboars is WRONG.

Now above I referred to the condition of the so-called "hybrid tooth" as being vestigial. Vestigial means it is an anatomical structure that no longer retains its original form or function and often is being lost evolutionarily over time. However, the actual absence of this tooth (or other dental structure) is called oligodontia. Here is a neat little abstract for an article discussing this very issue. You can order the whole article, but the abstract already tells us that the notion of the "hybrid tooth" as diagnostic is bogus.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/p335h22227u2023m/
Quote:
Oligodonty (either bilateral or unilateral) was the most common anomaly, occurring in 9 wild (23.1% of the sample) and 15 (50%) domestic pigs. In 22 of the 24 individuals exhibiting oligodonty, this anomaly involved the lower first premolar (P1). Given the placement of P1, oligodonty may reflect a trend toward reduction of the dental arcade from the primitive eutherian number.
The tooth that you call a "hybrid tooth" is the lower adult P1 (first premolar).

I am afraid, sir, that you have succombed to a 'fact' that is nothing more than an internet myth that appears to have its origins on the Texasboars website for which there is no justification. The notion that this tooth reflects anything at all about bloodline or domesticity, being feral, being wild, or some hybrid thereof is without any merit and should not be used as an indicator of being of Russian, wild Eurasian, or hybrid feral-Russian/wild Eurasian ancestry. Its presence only means that the hog isn't suffering from oligodontia of that tooth.
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Old March 7, 2012, 05:59 PM   #43
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DNS,

What's your take on Keg's pictures and questions?
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Old March 7, 2012, 06:09 PM   #44
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I didn't claim it refers to anything other than being called the "hybrid tooth" and "possible indicator..." No it really don't look I purported it to be anything more than I refer in this thread...

Brent
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Old March 7, 2012, 08:07 PM   #45
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the pics..
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File Type: jpg IMG_0027.jpg (243.5 KB, 19 views)
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Old March 7, 2012, 08:11 PM   #46
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hogdogs..I see hogs with a mane time to time..dark legs too..with a reddish body....
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Old March 8, 2012, 04:18 AM   #47
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I didn't claim it refers to anything other than being called the "hybrid tooth" and "possible indicator..." No it really don't look I purported it to be anything more than I refer in this thread...
Well, when you identify it as a hybrid tooth as you did, you are identifying it as a hybrid trait. The thing is, it isn't a possible indicator hog type and it isn't hybrid.
Okay, but it isn't even that.

Quote:
What's your take on Keg's pictures and questions?
That's a very nice pig and I am digging the excellent skeletonization result of the skull and mandible.

The questions...
Quote:
Is this just a feral pig? Or is it a hybrid with a lot of Russian/Eurasian blood?
I have always thought the latter....
I am continually amazed at folks' proclamations of spotting, catching, and/or killing of hogs that the hogs have some "Russian DNA" or "Russian genes" or "Russian traits" in them. They will usually pick out one or two morphological traits from the animal that match their criteria for what is a Russian hog. Of course, everyone wants to kill Russian hogs as the vast majority of us in the US grew up with or lived throught the Cold War where Russians were the enemy. Not only are Russian hogs the enemy, but are supposed to be meaner and more aggressive and sometimes people will proclaim a hog to have Russian ancestry based just on it being aggressive. When was the last time you can remember someody being quick to point out that the hog they shot had some Norwegian Landrace in it?

What a lot of folks do not understand is that the vast majority of hogs brought into the US have "Russian" ancestry. That is because the domestic pigs of Europe and Asia are domesticated from the Russian/Eurasian wild boars.

This article goes into a log of detail on the difficulties in properly identifying a hog based or morphological and behavioral characteristics. Many of the traits commonly known about Russian/Eurasian, feral, and hybrid distinctions has turned out to be flat our wrong in some cases and often variable in others. It is a neat article, but I have to question where it was that they obtained their pure feral hog population...as if somebody high fenced a few thousand acres and stocked it with domestic hogs and came back 20 years later to find all the original domestic hogs were long dead, but their several generations of offspring turned into pure feral hogs. I don't see that happening or how the researchers would have known if their pure ferals had been contaminated with more domestic or with Russian/Eurasion lines.
http://agrilife.org/texnatwildlife/f...ced-wild-boar/

While the above article indicates skull measurements to be pretty good for diagnostic/identification purposes, this article says the method has problems. Note that the most recent citation in the above article dates back to 1992.
http://www.secem.es/GALEMYS/PDF%20de...ov%209-23_.pdf

Okay, to confound things even further about Keg's hog, hogdogs noted that it looked like a Spanish Black and has noted hogs in his area have Spanish Black blood. What is interesting to note it that Spanish Black (Iberian Black) hogs are thought to be a hybrid of the introduced Mediterranean breed that bred with Eurasian wild boars, but only Keg thought it looked like it has Russian traits. http://bigpictureagriculture.blogspo...ig-breeds.html

So given its history, Keg's possible Spanish Black or Iberian Black hog would be domesticated and Eurasian wild boar hybrid feral hog. How is that for covering all the bases?

Quote:
Just as or deer are smaller..the closer U get to the tropics and larger to the north....same with asian boar....
And that difference is called clinal size variation.
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Old March 8, 2012, 08:54 AM   #48
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Why are these pigs more prevalent in the south, when the northern US more closely mimics their natural environment? They have an obvious aversion to heat.
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Old March 8, 2012, 09:01 AM   #49
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As a joke when I kill a pig, when accompanied by others, I proclaim it to be a Russian, even if its a fuzzy pokie dotted one. They get all excited and jazzed up, then they get the "just kidding"....and that crushes their soul...LOL
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Old March 8, 2012, 09:17 AM   #50
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I am not one who sees a trait on any ol' feral hog and sees a "russian"...

I have seen far too many 400+ pound black hogs that are just BIG HUGE BLACK HOGS... No mane... No shoulders that narrow above the axis point to to be a "blade-esque" shape rising above the top of the level hog head...

Slightly tipped hairs say "feral domestic cross"... but half the length of hair being a different color is very much common in eurasian swine.

As for size... hogs will grow... We have pockets of feral domestics that easily hold many large 250-350 pound brood animals... Other pockets seem to top out around 200-250 with a 300 being an anomaly...

Fighters??? Some of the more "docile" catches I have had dogs in were the ones seeming more russian than others... and I am still waiting for a pig with more fight than those young 150# black pigs I mention...

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