The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 1, 2012, 12:29 AM   #1
deerslayer303
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Location: Leesville SC
Posts: 1,119
Snide comments when asking for BP

I make it a point to stop by every gun shop or sporting goods store to ask if they carry BP. I know my quest to find it locally or within a decent driving distance is not going to happen. But hey I can ask right? Any way most times when I ask for it I get some kind of snark comment as to why I want it. Today I got "who still uses that nasty inferior stuff anyway? That Pyrodex and Triple 7 we have right there is a far better product!" I replied, "you think so? Ok then" This was at a gun shop I've never been to that sells alot of outdoor gear. I figured I would drive over there just to see if maybe they had it. I think I'm about all out of options though so I'm going to order some from powder inc.
deerslayer303 is offline  
Old March 1, 2012, 12:43 AM   #2
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,461
DS

Lot of good words about Powder Inc on this forum.

I personally have never ordered from them because powder in the small volumes I need is available here.

I get powder at guns shows at a coupla buck less than retail. You will do much better at Powder Inc.

They may have caps too.
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old March 1, 2012, 12:46 AM   #3
LockedBreech
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2009
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 2,846
I get gun stuff online anymore. I got too tired of attitudes like that.
LockedBreech is offline  
Old March 1, 2012, 12:50 AM   #4
IDAHOMIKE
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2007
Location: Gooding, ID
Posts: 348
I try to avoid most of the shops, at least while in CA. Idaho is entirely different, well that probably goes without saying. I use the muzzleloaders to tide me over while in CA working. Last time I bought caps, you'd have thought I was asking for the "salesman's" first born. Then he argued that I needed no 10 Remingtons, not the CCI 11's I had requested. This is the same feller that won't sell people home defense shotguns without going on his tirade about using slugs only, and I have overheard him state that he won't help them if they think otherwise. So obviously, some guy asking for caps is really far out of the realm of serious shooters. I will now be ordering caps online.
__________________
Need some top notch gunleather? Please check out my facebook page at: http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/A-T...05958232763057 and my website at http://atouchofyellowleatherwerkes.weebly.com/
10% discount for TFL members. Thanks for looking!
IDAHOMIKE is offline  
Old March 1, 2012, 01:01 AM   #5
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,461
It used to bug me that..

....The LGS locations do not carry BP or C & B revolvers and such but I do realize that every square inch of counter or shelf space represents an opportunity for revenue.

It is kind of like a used car lot which measures market quality by the number of places for used cars on the lot.

I don't forward this as a reason to be rude to customers. I have not personally experienced a seller pooh poohing my interest but if I did I would not give him a second opportunity.
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old March 1, 2012, 01:18 AM   #6
dlbarr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2011
Posts: 160
Yeah, I don't know what it is with some of these folks...they think only the latest can be the greatest, if you know what I mean. But then, I guess I'm a bit of a propellant snob myself - I wouldn't consider using anything BUT black powder!
dlbarr is offline  
Old March 1, 2012, 02:10 AM   #7
deerslayer303
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Location: Leesville SC
Posts: 1,119
Quote:
I wouldn't consider using anything BUT black powder!
I know right? I have BLACK POWDER RIFLES!! I don't have BLACK POWDER SUBSTITUTE RIFLES! LOL it even says "BLACK POWDER ONLY" right there on the barrel
deerslayer303 is offline  
Old March 1, 2012, 06:39 AM   #8
jh9x18ky
Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2007
Location: KY
Posts: 47
One of my experiences... Went to local gun shop, told them I picked up a BP revolver used, wanted something in 3f to try it out.... didnt really matter brand or BP or substitue. Guy behind the counter cuts loose, hasnt had any BP in a couple years, too expensive, too many regulations, nobody buys it, too nasty. I said I understand, and is it OK if I look around a minute..... Wandering thru the shop, I see a dozen or so cans of Pyrodex P on the shelf with the 777 2f and Shockeys Gold. Guy working at the shop says " Oh... I didnt know you wanted that. We never sell any of that stuff either." Wonder why ?
__________________
"If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid for." Clint Smith
jh9x18ky is offline  
Old March 1, 2012, 07:05 AM   #9
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,461
That is a good one....

JH,

Interesting story. I was told by a LGS operator who does carry BP and Subs that it is more expensive to store BP than smokeless. That may be because they cannot be stored in the same place.

Mykeal IIRC is very sharp on these regulations.

We have a Bass Proshop about 25 miles from here and they carry it at about $25.00 a pound. There is a Dick's Sporting Goods about ten miles from here and they want about 50% more than BPS.

The clerks at these stores are not smart enough to make snide comments.
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old March 1, 2012, 07:50 AM   #10
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35,251
Black powder requires different storage and handling, as it is truly an explosive, where as smokeless powder is a flammable solid.

When I lived in Pennsylvania the area where I was had a very active black powder hunting and re-enactment group, so I was always able to glome onto their group buys.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old March 1, 2012, 10:55 AM   #11
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,918
Obviously, there are different regs. on storage, handling of BP versus Subs as even most Walmarts around here have the Subs out on the shelves. Ask them for BP and they look at you like you've got worms crawling outta your eyes.

Far as the 'snarky' comments, I view this the same as when I go to the LGS and want something specific, the LGS doesn't carry it and the salesperson is bound and determined to show me everything else in the store telling me "this will work" or "this is better then what you want".

Don't get me wrong, there have been times when I've listened to the salesperson. Only cause I have a history with that particular person and trust their opinion. And these are the only salespeople I deal with at our LGS....if the salesperson is a stranger(say in Walmart), I usually repeat my specific needs and politely tell them I'm not interested in a substitute for my item.
shortwave is offline  
Old March 1, 2012, 11:40 AM   #12
twobit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2010
Location: Coyote Creak, SW Texas
Posts: 530
I have a traditional BP rifle and an 1860 BP pistol and use Pyrodex out of necessity. I have to travel 90 miles to even get the pyrodex and to buy caps. That location does not carry real black powder. They stated that the regulations for real BP were too much trouble to them.

My local gun store carries some in-line items such as pellet powder and sabots to cater to the hunters. I have no interest in the in-line guns. The local store carries smokeless powder and primers, but do not carry caps. His explanation on the caps was that his supplier could get them but the minimum order to him would be a case. It would take him years to sell a case of caps. I order ball, wads, and other items by internet. I buy smokeless and primer at my LGS to avoid the shipping surcharge.

Neither my LGS or the one 90 miles away make snide remarks about my requests. They just explain, in a professional manner, why they don't have the item. I respect them for that and continue to give them business.
__________________
Twobit,
LEO, NRA member, Native Texan. Shooting and hunting for over 45 years!
twobit is offline  
Old March 1, 2012, 01:03 PM   #13
Beagle333
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2012
Location: Auburn, AL.
Posts: 1,224
My LGS are pretty slim when it comes to bp stuff. AcademySports doesn't even acknowledge that bp shooting still exists, Dick's has one pegboard back in the corner with a few PowerBelts and T/C ramrod accessories hanging on it, and our two super Wal Marts don't even sell firearms anymore (Thanks local gov't, for protecting me from myself). The closest source is an auto parts store that has a dusty low-lit back room where they have old stock on deep, dark wooden shelves. They do have 70s-era balsa wood lures still priced at about 2 bucks, and cans of Hercules Unique dated 1987 for $13 bucks. (I got it for the .357, not the bp stuff, don't get excited). The round balls are all white from oxidation and look like they might have been original issue to the guys on the CSS H.L. Hunley and the Pyrodex is still marked $15 a pound, but it shoots just fine. When it runs out, I'll be traveling, because Bass Pro is 70 miles away, and is the next nearest purveyor of bp interests.
Beagle333 is offline  
Old March 1, 2012, 02:09 PM   #14
B.L.E.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 1,840
I guess I'm one of the lucky ones after reading all these posts. We have a gun store in Austin, TX that sells Goex but you have to ask for it at the counter and then they get it out of their special black powder storage magazine.
Also, I shoot at a lot of muzzle loading matches and usually there is a vender who sells the stuff at those matches. Also, cans of black powder are given away as prizes at many of the shoots.

For those who claim the subs are better or just as good, I challenge you to find a serious bench rest or offhand rifle competitor who uses the subs at the NMLRA or TMLRA shoots. They are allowed to use them but most of them don't. It's hard to beat the real stuff. The more I use it, the more I appreciate how terrible it is not.
B.L.E. is offline  
Old March 1, 2012, 02:13 PM   #15
jh9x18ky
Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2007
Location: KY
Posts: 47
If you are looking for true BP, check local muzzle loading clubs or groups. A lot of them make "bulk" purchases, and as long as you get in on the order in advance, you can score some.
__________________
"If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid for." Clint Smith
jh9x18ky is offline  
Old March 1, 2012, 11:43 PM   #16
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,918
Quote:
For those who claim subs are better or just as good
...

...there's a statement that can ,has been and will be debated for years.
Especially the, "just as good" part.

But alas, that's an age old debate for another thread.
shortwave is offline  
Old March 2, 2012, 09:58 AM   #17
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35,251
Are any of the subs suitable for use with a flintlock?
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old March 2, 2012, 10:39 AM   #18
mykeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2006
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 2,725
Quote:
Are any of the subs suitable for use with a flintlock?
Depends on ignition temperature. Offhand I don't know of any - all the subs I've looked into have higher ignition temperatures than real black powder. One good 'solution' is to use a duplex load: 5 gr real black followed by your regular load of substitute powder (adjusted for the 5 grains of real black, of course).
mykeal is offline  
Old March 2, 2012, 12:53 PM   #19
wittzo
Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2010
Posts: 94
When I first got my blunderbuss, I tried using Triple7 P in the pan and either Shockey's Gold or Triple7 RS as a main charge. It was like lighting a firecracker and waiting for the fuse to hurry up.
I got a case of mixed grades from Powder, Inc. and haven't used any of the subs since.
wittzo is offline  
Old March 3, 2012, 02:20 PM   #20
wjg686
Member
 
Join Date: May 21, 2006
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 95
Mykeal's recommendation mirrors my experience -- Triple 7 won't light in a flintlock without 5 grains of blackpowder put in first. I use Goex FF in both my flintlock (4F in the pan) and my in-line. No reason to use anything else.
wjg686 is offline  
Old March 3, 2012, 05:24 PM   #21
Andy Griffith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 14, 2009
Location: Macon Co. NC
Posts: 566
The other problem is, that most sellers that do even stock the real McCoy, is that their selection is small. I know of two shops not for far from here, but they only stock Goex, and only in FFg.

What if I want some Swiss in 4Fg? What if I want to try some Kik or Diamondback or Goex Express? The only way to get a good variation of powders (or even just a different granulation is to order it yourself from someone like Powder Inc, Jacks or some other outfit.
__________________
Barney Fife: "Nip it, nip it, nip it!"
Andy Griffith:"Oh now Barn'...."
Andy Griffith is offline  
Old March 5, 2012, 09:15 AM   #22
madcratebuilder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2007
Location: Northern Orygun
Posts: 4,868
After 9-11 and the formation of dept of HLS the laws on storage of black powder saw a major change. Most small stores could not afford the new requirements so they stopped carrying real BP.
madcratebuilder is offline  
Old March 6, 2012, 12:04 AM   #23
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Posts: 1,814
Snide comments when asking for BP

Mike Irwin: I agree 100% with your thread. Black is an explosive under DOT rules. And being such requires special handling and storage in any amounts. In some States there is a requirement under penalty of Law. That a buyers signature with proof of identification and amounts being purchased must be logged and kept by its seller / dealer. "That is the way Black is handled in my State." and I'm happy to oblige.
Substitute powders have restrictions as well. But not at the level Black is on.
Quote:
tried using Triple7 P in the pan and either Shockey's Gold or Triple7 RS as a main charge. It was like lighting a firecracker and waiting for the fuse to hurry up.
Best quote of the night!!! I like It!!!
__________________
"Any rifle will shoot bullets through the same hole. You just have to be able to see well enough to aim right."

Last edited by Sure Shot Mc Gee; March 6, 2012 at 12:09 AM.
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old March 6, 2012, 07:27 AM   #24
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35,251
The latest issue of Handloader has an article on a new substitute, Alliant Black MZ or something like that.

It's a close volumetric replacement for black powder.

I read it really quickly, but it seemed to me to be saying that it COULD be used in a flintlock, but it was best with a booster of black powder and black in the pan.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old March 15, 2012, 06:36 PM   #25
mikthestick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2012
Location: Devon England
Posts: 118
Bad manners will cost you customers

I Know Americans share the English language with us Brits and we certainly have a different culture BUT I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT ONE THING ABOUT AMERICANS IS THEY ARE ALMOST ALWAYS POLITE.

If I go into a shop to buy something and get snide comments when asking advice There will be NO SALE even if they are the only shop selling what I want.

My reply would be something like "Oh well I'll just go down to Guns R us to by my 1000 rounds for my 30-06 bye". It matters not that I may only have an air rifle.
mikthestick is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12488 seconds with 7 queries