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Old February 10, 2012, 02:31 PM   #1
jclayto
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Gun show lower receiver question?

Hi everyone! I've been lurking for a while learning as much as I can. I am planning to do a 10.5" ar pistol build soon with the intention of registering/converting to a SBR after setting up a trust and receiving the stamp.

I know from what I've seen posted here that stripped lower receivers need not be marked pistol only and that when a dealer transfers to me it will be listed as "other" on the form 4473. This will allow me to build it out as either in the future.

There is a gun show in town tomorrow and while I do not normally attend these I was thinking I may go look around. If i find a receiver there from what I remember from gun shows years ago there is no paperwork involved. Cash and carry here in SC. Would this potentially cause me any issues with being able to build as a pistol or register as a rifle?
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Old February 10, 2012, 02:41 PM   #2
ScottRiqui
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Quote:
If i find a receiver there from what I remember from gun shows years ago there is no paperwork involved. Cash and carry here in SC.
Unless you're buying a used lower receiver from a private individual, there most certainly *will* be paperwork, including the Form 4473.
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Old February 10, 2012, 02:43 PM   #3
jclayto
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::Edit:: it's been a few years as I stated. After talking to someone that was at a recent show it sounds like SC now requires all the paperwork to be filled out at shows so it will not be an issue. It was more than likely in place even years ago when I last attended but I bought a used rifle from an individual then so it would explain the lack of paperwork.


For curiosity sake, would a used lower from an individual cause issue? They are so inexpensive that I would probably not buy a used one, but curious anyhow.


Sorry for a dumb post, just wanted to make sure that I did not mess up.
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Old February 10, 2012, 05:41 PM   #4
coolhandluke4
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I have a table at the Greenville show tomorrow, I sell custom knives and some rifles I've picked up. At the last show in December, there were quite a few people selling new lowers from their "private collections", so there's no paperwork involved.
Stop by and see me, I'll be the big guy with red hair selling custom knives and a few rifles
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Old February 10, 2012, 06:36 PM   #5
Willie Lowman
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For curiosity sake, would a used lower from an individual cause issue? They are so inexpensive that I would probably not buy a used one, but curious anyhow.
Well, was the used lower used as a pistol? If so, no problem.

If the used lower was a rifle, there are restrictions on making pistols from rifles.

You could just get a lower, engrave and form 1 it and forget about wasting time with it in pistol configuration.
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Old February 10, 2012, 11:05 PM   #6
jclayto
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Coolhand, if I make it out I'll say hello. I am also a big guy with red hair, hard to miss.

Gunshows are not usually my thing but I hope to at least find a few deals on powder/primers/bullets.

Thanks everyone, and again, apologize for the ridiculous post.
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Old February 11, 2012, 01:08 PM   #7
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The receiver doesn't need to be labeled pistol. When the dealer sells it, he notes it as just a recevier. As long as it hasn't had a stock mounted on it, you'll be fine.

Quote:
quite a few people selling new lowers from their "private collections", so there's no paperwork involved.
If it's done at a gun show, there must be a background check done regardless. Gun shows constitute 3 or more people viewing firearms in one location.
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Old February 11, 2012, 01:17 PM   #8
DougU
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I believe that Ridge Runner is correct. If you are dealer you will be endangering your FFL selling from your "private collection" at any show or industry event. It is very very difficult for an FFL dealer to claim private transaction. I have family that are dealers and he will not even do a private transaction for me to buy back a turkey gun I sold him before he had his FFL.

Last edited by DougU; February 11, 2012 at 03:38 PM.
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Old February 12, 2012, 11:22 AM   #9
jclayto
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Thanks everyone. Gun show was a bust, oddly enough only a few tables selling a handful of lowers and could not find anyone selling pistol uppers.

I did almost pull the trigger on a suppressor but went with my gut and did not make a split second decision. This particular dealer was offering Gemtech Trek's for $550 and setting up trust for $50 if I bought the suppressor from him. He claimed to have a flawless track record with atf approving his trust, but with all that I have read lately about the atf getting picky I decided to come home and research the dealer some more and most likely use a real lawyer. As others have stated and I agree, I don't mind paying for some peace of mind and the whole thing seemed interesting but fishy to me.

On a side note.. After talking with the handful of suppressor dealers, all of whom conveniently did not sell take apart suppressors they all warned me of the "dangers" of a take apart, pressure, blow ups etc if not tightly reassembled. Sales tactic right? A take apart is preferred for cleaning correct?
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Old February 12, 2012, 01:06 PM   #10
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A take apart for what caliber?

I won't buy a .22 can I can't take apart.

A few years ago it was said that a sealed 9mm can was the way to go. Now user serviceable cans are coming into vogue. Both of my 9mm cans are sealed and I'm happy with them. I may change my mind after I run 5000 more rounds through them.

For 5.56 or 7.62x51, the best cans are all welded up tight. There won't be any taking them apart.
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Old February 12, 2012, 02:34 PM   #11
dogtown tom
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Quote:
Ridge_Runner_5 The receiver doesn't need to be labeled pistol. When the dealer sells it, he notes it as just a recevier. As long as it hasn't had a stock mounted on it, you'll be fine.
To be considered a "rifle" it must have BOTH a barrel AND a stock attached. An AR lower receiver with a shoulder stock only is most definitely NOT a rifle.


Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
quite a few people selling new lowers from their "private collections", so there's no paperwork involved.
If it's done at a gun show, there must be a background check done regardless.
Federal law only requires licensed dealers to run the FBI NICS background check...and it doesn't matter if they are selling at a gun show or at their licensed premises. If the seller is not a licensed dealer they do not have access to NICS. If you state requires nonlicensed sellers to run a background check it is state, not Federal law....and it isn't FBI NICS.



Quote:
Gun shows constitute 3 or more people viewing firearms in one location.
Again, that might be your state law, because Federal law doesn't define "gun show" that way. See § 478.100 Conduct of business away from licensed premises:http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...0.1.2.3.6.1.10




Quote:
DougU I believe that Ridge Runner is correct. If you are dealer you will be endangering your FFL selling from your "private collection" at any show or industry event. It is very very difficult for an FFL dealer to claim private transaction. I have family that are dealers and he will not even do a private transaction for me to buy back a turkey gun I sold him before he had his FFL.
Uh, no. ATF regulations clearly allow a licensee to sell firearms from his private collection. Not only is it not difficult, but ATF easily and clearly details how long the firearm must be in the dealers private collection (one year) to allow it to be sold, traded or gifted without need for a 4473 or NICS. If the licensee decides to sell, trade or gift the firearm before that year is up....he is required to do a 4473/NICS. See § 478.125a Personal firearms collection:http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....0.1.2.3.8.1.7



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Old February 12, 2012, 11:09 PM   #12
Ridge_Runner_5
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Quote:
To be considered a "rifle" it must have BOTH a barrel AND a stock attached. An AR lower receiver with a shoulder stock only is most definitely NOT a rifle.
If it has a stock installed, then it will be in the dealer's book as a rifle, and must be marked as such when they sell it.

The ATF has said that you can turn a rifle into a pistol and back again as many times as you want, though.
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Old February 13, 2012, 01:39 PM   #13
Willie Lowman
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Hang on a second. Have they said you can turn a pistol into a rifle and back again or did they say you can turn a rifle into a pistol? There is a difference.
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Old February 13, 2012, 02:20 PM   #14
rjrivero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridge_Runner_5
If it has a stock installed, then it will be in the dealer's book as a rifle, and must be marked as such when they sell it.

The ATF has said that you can turn a rifle into a pistol and back again as many times as you want, though.
The dealers are doing it wrong if they're doing it that way. What is the barrel length on that "rifle"? What Caliber is that "rifle"? It's not a rifle unless it has a stock and an upper with a barrel of 16" or longer. Period.

A lower weather fully built or stripped, must be transfered as "other" on a 4473.

A stripped lower can be made into a pistol FIRST, then made into a rifle, and then back into a pistol at will without violating the NFA. (Google ATF Ruling 2011-4)

But you CAN NOT make a pistol from a rifle without first filling out a Form 1 and paying your $200 Tax. (See ATF 5320.8 chapter 2)
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Old February 13, 2012, 07:21 PM   #15
dogtown tom
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Quote:
Ridge_Runner_5
Quote:
Quote:
To be considered a "rifle" it must have BOTH a barrel AND a stock attached. An AR lower receiver with a shoulder stock only is most definitely NOT a rifle.
If it has a stock installed, then it will be in the dealer's book as a rifle, and must be marked as such when they sell it.

The ATF has said that you can turn a rifle into a pistol and back again as many times as you want, though.
You are 100% wrong.
ATF is very clear that a "rifle" must have both a barrel and a shoulder stock.
An AR that arrives as a "complete" lower (lower receiver w/stock) is logged into my records as an "Other Firearm"....it is not a handgun, nor a long gun.
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Old February 17, 2012, 10:36 PM   #16
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Carry On

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Old February 19, 2012, 07:42 PM   #17
dogtown tom
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David Hineline Dogtown Tom is most definatly wrong, he is going to have fun at his next inspection from the
BATFE.
Really?
I just had my last inspection on September 6th and had ZERO mistakes so either you are wrong or my last three IOI's and I are wrong.

Quote:
A firearm receiver never barreled or stocked is an other. One assembled with a shoulder stock would make it a long gun, so a stocked ar type lower definatly is a long gun.
According to my last three IOI's a "rifle" must have a stock and a barrel. Note that the definition of "rifle" in the Gun Control Act of 1968 says:
Quote:
921 (a)(7) The term "rifle" means a weapon
designed or redesigned, made or remade,
and intended to be fired from the
shoulder and designed or redesigned
and made or remade to use the energy
of an explosive to fire only a single projectile
through a rifled bore for each
single pull of the trigger.
Note that a frame/receiver/lower does not have a rifled bore as they do not have a barrel.


Quote:
The Mossberg Cruiser is an example pistol gripped factory gun, can become an AOW, the Mossberg Pursueder though the same gun comes with both pistol grip and shoulder fired stock and can not be registered as an AOW.
A Mossberg Persuader that arrives with a pistol grip only is still an Other Firearm....even if the shoulder stock is in the box.

Quote:
I suggest Tom contacts his IOI and finds out how they want him to correct all his 4473s that he did wrong.
No need, already did that back in 2008 when they added "Other Firearm" to the 4473.
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Old February 19, 2012, 09:47 PM   #18
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Old February 19, 2012, 10:17 PM   #19
rjrivero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATF 4473
Question 18. Type of Firealrm(s): Check all boxes that apply. "Other" refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are not either handguns or long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel
a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms. If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, they still are "firearms" by definition. and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearms. See Section 92 I(a)(3)(b). 18 U.S.C. Section 922(b)(1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be made into a long gun, is a "firearm other than a shotgun or rifle," it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age of 21. Also, note that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any firearms, or pistol grip shotguns, since they are not "pistols or revolvers" under Section 923(g)(3)(a).
(Bold added by me)

Apparently, in the instruction portion of the 4473, A RECEIVER is NOT A HANDGUN OR LONG GUN.

Last edited by rjrivero; February 20, 2012 at 01:14 AM.
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Old February 19, 2012, 10:23 PM   #20
dogtown tom
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Quote:
David Hineline Using your logic I could sell new glocks complete with buttstock but no barrel as other.
My "logic" is what ATF regs define as "rifle'. Don't blame me if you disagree with how ATF defines "rifle".
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Old February 19, 2012, 11:55 PM   #21
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Old February 20, 2012, 12:48 AM   #22
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The stocked bare receiver is supposed to be listed as "other" on the 4473, But since it has a stock on it from the factory it is considered a long gun by the BATFE. so taking the stock off and using the receiver as a pistol frame would be considered making a short barreled rifle by the BATFE.

Under the instructions for that part of the form it says

If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun , it is
still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun.

It started life with a stock so it has to keep the stock. If the stock was not installed from the factory or dealer you would be good to use it for anything
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Old February 20, 2012, 12:58 AM   #23
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Old February 20, 2012, 01:06 AM   #24
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Just the screwed up way the BATFE works. AR's are the only bare receiver I can think of that MIGHT come with a stock from the factory.

Like I said it is still a long gun in the eyes of the BATFE. If for some reason they went to the manf. and saw that it left the factory with a stock and is in pistol form now you better have a form 1 or form 4 to go with it.
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Old February 20, 2012, 01:10 AM   #25
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AR receivers, weather or not they come with a stock, CAN be built into pistols provided they have never been built into a complete rifle.

See letter attached. Page 2 has that direct answer, to that direct question. A stocked receiver. The previous reference is directly from the 4473 instruction page. I don't know how to make that any more clear.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hineline
but a buttstock makes a receiver shoulder fired and then becomes a long gun, not an other.
I guess the way to look at it is that a buttstock on a receiver can't be fired at all. It needs to have a complete upper attached in order for it to be "fireable." Until it's built into a complete firearm, you can take off the butt stock and put on a pistol buffer tube and a short barreled upper and still have a legal pistol.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ARpistolreceiverletter-page1-web.jpg (155.1 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg ARpistolreceiverletter-page2-web.jpg (129.8 KB, 14 views)

Last edited by rjrivero; February 20, 2012 at 01:22 AM.
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