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Old February 24, 2012, 04:54 PM   #26
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edavis456
If you have had training why not just shoot the person in the knee or leg with all that time at the range and this is what you get out going to the range to take a life. I would think its to sharpen your skills shot the guy in the leg or arm he still has a chance of bleeding out but atleast you know you didnt shoot'em in one of the kill area's. Just something to think about dont be another gun happy cop that see's a reason to to kill someone. Officer's are suppose to wound the person not go for a kill shoot thats what their trained to do serve & protect i hope.
Let's go through this is some detail and look at some of the reasons that this view is all wrong.
  1. Quote:
    If you have had training why not just shoot the person in the knee or leg with all that time at the range and this is what you get out going to the range to take a life.
    1. Those of us who have had training know how difficult it is to make a precision shot like this quickly and under stress.

    2. We've also been trained to understand that missing a shot increases the likelihood of hitting an innocent by mistake. That is something to be avoided.

    3. And no, our training and practice is not about taking a life. It's about effectively stopping an attack to protect our life or the life of a loved one.

  2. Quote:
    ...I would think its to sharpen your skills shot the guy in the leg or arm he still has a chance of bleeding out but atleast you know you didnt shoot'em in one of the kill area's....
    1. Again we sharpen our skills to increase our chances of being effective in a dynamic and dangerous situation.

    2. The point is to have the best chance of stopping a potentially lethal attack.

    3. Do you understand peripheral hits might not in fact stop an aggressor? Do you understand how being shot can stop a fight? See this post for a more detailed explanation.

  3. Quote:
    ...Officer's are suppose to wound the person not go for a kill shoot thats what their trained to do...
    1. Why do you believe that?

    2. That is not in fact how LEOs are trained. They are trained to shoot to stop a threat.

    3. For a detailed explanation of how shooting can stop a threat, see the post linked to in 2. c., above.
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Old February 24, 2012, 05:32 PM   #27
Dashunde
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That is not in fact how LEOs are trained. They are trained to shoot to stop a threat.
Exactly - shoot center mass in the chest for maximum stopping effectiveness and the safety of those in the vicinity - its the best chance of stopping the person who is a "deadly threat" aggressor... if they are lucky enough to live GREAT, if they don't that is simply a consequence of their actions that caused the officer (or us) to shoot them in the first place.

The shoot-to-wound mentality has all sorts of philosophical problems.
Simply put - if the threat is severe enough to shoot at all, then killing the aggressor is justified - there are no "levels" of shooting someone.
Deal with it pragmatically or don’t carry.

Once a person becomes an aggressor with the will and capability of causing deadly or severe bodily harm to another they have offered up their life to chance through their actions.
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Old February 24, 2012, 05:39 PM   #28
Cindyann
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There is a lot of excellent discussion here! For myself, no I would not use my weapon in defense of a stranger. Like someone else said my primary responsibility is to care for and protect MY family. Very difficult to do from jail, and to my mind too many odds that jail is where you will end up.
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Old February 24, 2012, 05:51 PM   #29
MrDontPlay
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The difference between this and a SD situation is you will likely have more time to think. Let's say I saw a man being beaten by a woman (let's not stereotype here) I would call 911, make it known that I called 911, and if that didn't work, I would present my weapon. From then on it would be up to the attacker, but I think these steps would stop most attacks.
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Old February 24, 2012, 07:40 PM   #30
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Let's say I saw a man being beaten by a woman (let's not stereotype here) I would call 911, make it known that I called 911, and if that didn't work, I would present my weapon. From then on it would be up to the attacker, but I think these steps would stop most attacks.
You should really check out the "Conceal & Carry School" link. They used a reality based scenario that was very similar to that and many of the students used the approach you described unsuccessfully.
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Old February 24, 2012, 08:32 PM   #31
Sponge14
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The only way I am using the defense of other clause is if I am defending those I am with, or in a situation where I am in the store when the robbery commences to occur. I am not a sworn officer of the law, I have no "duty" to protect others. My duty is to myself and my family primarily. My duty to others is to call the police and be a good witness.

It's people with the Captain America, I have to save the day mentality that gets them in trouble.
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Old February 25, 2012, 01:01 AM   #32
MLeake
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In the days before I carried, I had to intervene in a few scenarios. Two involved women being assaulted by men, and a third involved a friend (130lbs and asthmatic) having his head beaten into the ground by a 250lb football team center, whom my friend had reprimanded at work.

The first man vs woman turned out to be a domestic, although it had looked to me like a mugging at first. The guy and I squared off, but the woman talked things down... as I realized she was behind me, and I was very unhappy.

In the second instance, my ex-wife saw what was happening, and responded before I even realized the problem was occurring. I immediately followed her; the guy left; we took the woman to her relative's home. But that, too, was a domestic, just out in town.

In the third instance, I had seen the fight from its inception, knew the big guy was in the wrong, but was putting myself at some degree of risk. My small friend had chosen to fight back, instead of running away, because he was convinced the guy would simply follow him home and do a real number on him, when no witnesses were present. I ended up having to pin the football player, using a modified double armbar which put all his body weight over his head and neck, and held him there until the police arrived. Luckily for me, witness statements corroborated that I only intervened when the guy started bouncing my friend's head off the pavement, and then I only used necessary force to restrain him.

Football player got arrested, and I was bidden a good evening.

Where am I going with all this?

1) I don't think I'm Captain America, and I don't go looking for bad guys. OTOH, I would have a very hard time looking in the mirror if I did not take some sort of action, and allowed a woman to be beaten, or a friend to suffer a TBI.

2) While carrying makes me a bit more cautious and circumspect, I'm still not wired to stand by and do nothing. I would do my best to understand what was happening, but I would not (based on my experiences with such things, or for that matter with dog attacks, house fires, and near drownings) just walk off. Not only would I be unable to live with myself, but I'd disappoint my mother, who did not raise me to leave problems to somebody else. For that matter, the Navy didn't train me to leave the sticky problems for some other guy.

3) If some posters think that attitude makes me a vigilante, then we will have to disagree about what vigilantism is.
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Old February 25, 2012, 01:08 AM   #33
Tom Servo
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Quote:
If some posters think that attitude makes me a vigilante, then we will have to disagree about what vigilantism is.
To be clear, vigilantism is the extralegal meting out of punishment to someone deemed a criminal on arbitrary grounds.

The primary element is punishment. If I harm a second party to prevent further or imminent harm to a third, that's intervention. If I harm a second party because I think he's a jerk, that's vigilantism.

For the record, I look absolutely ridiculous in Captain America tights. You guys don't want those pictures.
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Old March 5, 2012, 10:50 PM   #34
Fasttimez
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This thread has a lot of good points. Their was an incident here a few years ago where a LEO was shot during a struggle during a traffic stop, he was able to call for help before passing out. A passer by noticed the officer laying on the side of the highway and stopped to try and render assistance. Well bad timing because not 30 secs. after they nelt down over the officer that backup arrived. The pedestrian was shot 2 times by the other LEO's thinking he was the perp. It was a case of mistaken identity. In situations like these adrenaline can sometimes cloud judgement, no matter how much training you recieve. Always be sure of your target and their intent. It's hard to put the bullet back in the gun once it's fired. Thankfully both parties involved survived the shooting.
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Old March 7, 2012, 04:23 PM   #35
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im 22 years old and my father was a MP for 24 years in the army and he always taught me to shoot to "stop" not kill but he said if you ever do have to shoot and the subject dies i did my job by stopping them...
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