The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 1, 2012, 07:48 PM   #1
baddarryl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 29, 2011
Location: Cape Fear!
Posts: 1,000
Alternatives when you can't carry?

What have you guys found are the best non lethal alternatives to carry when unable to CC due to regulations and what not? Thanks.
baddarryl is offline  
Old February 1, 2012, 08:34 PM   #2
ProShooter
Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2009
Location: Richmond, Va.
Posts: 86
sabre pepper spray
__________________
NRA Certified Firearms Instructor
Utah Concealed Firearms Certified Instructor
SABRE Pepper Spray CSAP Instructor
www.ProactiveShooters.com
ProShooter is offline  
Old February 1, 2012, 08:46 PM   #3
SHNOMIDO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 423
Here in IL ive gotten in the habit of holding my car key in my fist.

I should get a rape whistle.

with the attitude turned off- you'd probably be best served with a high quality pepper spray.

Martial arts is good too. Wish i could say i practiced, maybe someday. I cant afford it right now.
SHNOMIDO is offline  
Old February 1, 2012, 08:59 PM   #4
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,562
I have a little insignificant looking "Old Timer" 3 blade pocket knife.

The 2 1/2 in blade on it can be practically razor sharp, . . . and has a super sharp point.

More than once it has been opened, palmed, and I go on about my business. It is unfortunately only an "up close an in your face" weapon, . . . but I always figured that a sharp knife was a better defense than any vocabulary if it really got down to the knitty gritty.

I'll also open it, . . . drop it point first into my shirt pocket, . . . and it is handy at that point.

An old WW2 sailor from Oakland, Ca. taught me about it.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old February 1, 2012, 09:12 PM   #5
Don H
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2000
Location: SLC,Utah
Posts: 2,705
Cane.
Don H is offline  
Old February 1, 2012, 09:57 PM   #6
dev_null
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2002
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 615
Not non-lethal, but even without a CCW you can often carry a knife up to 5" (depending on state/local laws).
__________________
The plural of anecdote is NOT "data."
dev_null is offline  
Old February 1, 2012, 10:24 PM   #7
Jeremiah/Az
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2009
Location: Az.
Posts: 509
A good bright tactical, I hate that overused word, flashlite will blind a person temporarily, possibly giving you a chance to get away. I tried mine in broad daylite & I saw big spots for 10 minutes!
Jeremiah/Az is offline  
Old February 1, 2012, 10:32 PM   #8
BlackFeather
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
If I am unable to carry a dedicated weapon, I usually don't bother with anything else. I have a bandanna, I know how to use it like a fighting chain. It's not perfect, and I'd likely never use it. I have a lot of Martial Arts/Combatives training so I don't feel uncomfortable.
__________________
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]
BlackFeather is offline  
Old February 2, 2012, 06:20 AM   #9
icedog88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2011
Location: norwich ct
Posts: 737
Hide Away Knife. Great quality and several different carry options. This company makes great stuff.
__________________
"The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps"-LtGen. Holland M "Howlin' Mad" Smith, USMC,1949
Have you forgotten yet? Look down and swear by the slain of the War that you'll NEVER forget. [Siegfried Sassoon,"Aftermath,"1919]
icedog88 is offline  
Old February 2, 2012, 09:47 AM   #10
chewie146
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2010
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 853
Knife, awareness...just a change of weapon.
chewie146 is offline  
Old February 2, 2012, 12:33 PM   #11
Don H
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2000
Location: SLC,Utah
Posts: 2,705
"non lethal alternatives"? I think just about anything that could serve as a weapon would likely be lethal under the correct (even if rare) circumstances. "Less lethal" would probably be a more accurate term.
Don H is offline  
Old February 2, 2012, 12:49 PM   #12
brickeyee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2004
Posts: 3,342
A number of the newer ball point pens are extremely sharp.
brickeyee is offline  
Old February 2, 2012, 04:21 PM   #13
aarondhgraham
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2009
Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma
Posts: 7,075
I have a small lock-blade knife,,,

It only has a 1.25" blade,,,
But it's very sharp.

It's on my key chain and it comes to hand very readily,,,
If someone were to physically assault me,,,
I'm hoping to get one good swipe,,,
Preferably in the femoral area,,,
Or wherever big veins will be.

Any time I am walking towards my car,,,
it doesn't matter day or night,,,
That knife is in my hand,,,
It's my key chain fob.

In February following 911,,,
I had to fly to Boston.

I was not happy about getting on a plane at that time,,,
Especially as I knew they wouldn't allow me to have my "weapons".

So I wore Levi's with the heaviest trophy buckle I owned,,,
The belt is a weapon most people don't consider,,,
But as a short flail it's quite effective.

Most people will laugh at the thought,,,
But I will take on just about any box knife wielder,,,
If I have 18 or so inches of leather with a big buckle on the end of it.

My Black Belt has turned gray from 30+ years of disuse,,,
But I do recall the effective belt/sash techniques Mr. Chan taught us.

I may be old and getting fatter by the minute,,,
But I am never ever totally unarmed.

Just wait until I start to use a cane.

Aarond

.
__________________
Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once.
Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it?
Combat: "A Silent Cry"
Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)
aarondhgraham is offline  
Old February 2, 2012, 05:14 PM   #14
Kevin Rohrer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2010
Location: Medina, Ohio
Posts: 507
I keep a very low profile and am at Condition Bright Yellow.
__________________
Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, Varmint Hunters' Assn., ARTCA, American Legion, & South Cuyahoga Sportsmen's Assn.

"Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery...all else is twaddle!" --Admiral Sir John Fisher, RN
Kevin Rohrer is offline  
Old February 3, 2012, 01:06 AM   #15
irish52084
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2011
Location: Washington, the state, not that "other" one.
Posts: 514
If possible, I carry a knife. If that's a no go, then it's just me and my terrible fighting skills. Years of training and I'm still a bad boxer and a worse wrestler. Oh well, I fight dirty, so maybe that will help.
irish52084 is offline  
Old February 3, 2012, 02:19 AM   #16
TheNocturnus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,093
Luckily, I live in Missouri and have lenient gun laws. I have only been carrying since April 2011 and don't see myself giving it up. I learned very effective self defense techniques from a former Navy seal. I learned S.C.A.R.S. if any of you are familiar with it, than you know how effective it can be.

Unfortunately, a disc in my lower back has degenerated and herniated so bad that I can no longer work or go a day without excruciating pain. So hand to hand combat is really no longer an option for me.
__________________
My EDC:
Gun
Wallet
Brain (Use this one the most)
TheNocturnus is offline  
Old February 3, 2012, 07:39 AM   #17
Don P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,794
Quote:
What have you guys found are the best non lethal alternatives to carry when unable to CC due to regulations and what not? Thanks
The places I go that I can't carry are well protected by LE. ( Court house,LE sub station,) other than that I carry. Can't even get a 1" blade pocket knife through security so there or no options in that situation
__________________
NRA Life Member, NRA Range Safety Officer, IDPA Safety Officer
As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.
Don P is offline  
Old February 3, 2012, 03:31 PM   #18
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,967
I once stuck a guy with a pencil, he was wanting to re arrange my face....

In public, I take a dog on a leash But really, most folks see my smile and they smile too.

A good walking stick does the trick, a shelaylee is in order as I do have one and yes it is kelly green with little knobby items upon it that will leave a mark on whatever encounters it....
markj is offline  
Old February 3, 2012, 10:18 PM   #19
egor20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2010
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,762
Broke my leg a few years back doing dumb stuff and my wife got me one of these:



Cold Steel Shillelagh




Still have the limp, and also the cane.
__________________
Chief stall mucker and grain chef

Country don't mean dumb.
Steven King. The Stand
egor20 is offline  
Old February 5, 2012, 03:09 PM   #20
PADefenseTrainer
Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2011
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 49
I typically carry a Leatherman Wave which I can expose a blade with one hand. Or I can use it as a kubaton if I keep i closed.

Also I fell in love with the Zebra F-701 Stainless Steel Ballpoint Pen I found at Staples a few years back. I carry it everywhere I go.



But it's hard to find lately.

By the way, just because it's not a gun does not mean it is "non lethal"
__________________
NRA Life Member | NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle & Shotgun Instructor | NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

".. a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen..." - Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181)
PADefenseTrainer is offline  
Old February 5, 2012, 08:42 PM   #21
bk688
Member
 
Join Date: May 24, 2009
Posts: 53
Oh God....

While I'd love to say Martial Arts is you best choice (helps keep you healthy too) Unfortunatly this is not true for most.

Why? Because most people attend a 1 1/2 hour class 2 times a week. Thats 3 hours a week. Lets think about this a bit.

The average highschol wrestler practices for 2 hours a day 5 days a week. I'd go so far as to say that 17 year old senior would kick the snot out of your karate/Jujitsu/etc. There is just not enough time to become proficient in martial arts unless you make a lifestile out of it.

I can vouch that karate does not beat wresteling, Got into a friendly bet with a guy at a party (I was 18 and 140 lbs he was 23 and 180ish). He had dozens karate trophies aroung his place (hed been doing karate since he was a kid). He kicked the crap out of me standing up, but the second I got him on the groung it was game over. That was out of somone who was extreamly proficient at karate.

Peperspray, tazer/pocket knife are generally the second best choices.

But the best by far: SITUATIONAL AWARNESS!!! See them coming, get out of the way!
bk688 is offline  
Old February 5, 2012, 08:50 PM   #22
JimPage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2010
Location: Rome, NY
Posts: 632
I guess I had the best of both worlds. I wrestled varsity in college and took Judo while in USAF. Of course, those were my younger days. Now, at 75, I depend heavily on weapons, as well a large dose of treachery, guile, and dirty tricks.
JimPage is offline  
Old February 5, 2012, 11:47 PM   #23
BlackFeather
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
bk688, while I don't want to start an argument, you prove you are only half right. Like you said, it was a friendly bet, and thus he wasn't determined to outright break something or punch you in the throat. You are indeed right that many who practice arts that are solely upright lack skill on the ground. I myself am one of those but that has simply been availability to train.

From a personal standpoint, knowing both is important. More importantly knowing to defend on both the ground and standing and getting away safely. For me, ground fighting defeats the purpose. You are purposely staying in contact with your opponent and while on the ground you are more susceptible to attacks from other people. As well, I'd rather not be in a position where my opponent can slam my head into anything more solid. Mats aren't on every floor. Just my opinions.

Yes, martial arts take a long time to gain ranks or be proficient, but in reality that's only a mindset issue. Learning to punch, block, and kick are the basics, you need only these. Knees and elbows are the same. In ground fighting you learn the different positions and basic locks. Once you know them it's only practice that makes them work. Just like shooting, you may know how to do it, but it's practice that makes you good. On the other side of things, Modern Combatives are a more "no-nonsense" choice based solely on defense and made to be taught in a timely manner.
__________________
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]
BlackFeather is offline  
Old February 8, 2012, 08:34 AM   #24
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,843
Staying fit and knowing how to fight......dirty.......real dirty.

(Credit to Irish for saying this first.)
Skans is offline  
Old February 8, 2012, 08:56 PM   #25
irish52084
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2011
Location: Washington, the state, not that "other" one.
Posts: 514
The mental willingness to keep fighting and not give up is also an important tool, probably as much as martial skill. It doesn't take any skill to hit the groin, throat, eyes etc... It takes a willingness to harm, hurt, maim or kill your your attacker. To me, that's were fighting "dirty" comes into play.

It comes up in jiu-jitsu all the time, can you pull of the movements necessary when someone is attacking you. It's a lot tougher to submit or control someone when they are throwing punches with hostile intent. That's why it's best 90% of the time to keep yourself on your feet and control the fight from there if possible. Once your on the ground all sorts of bad things can happen, especially if more than one threats are present.
irish52084 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14907 seconds with 10 queries