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Old February 21, 2012, 12:12 AM   #1
Yung.gunr
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Accidental Discharge after falling out....

Ok, so it's not like he pulled a Plaxico or anything, but this guy had his gun in a holster and it still came out and went off. http://www.azcentral.com/community/m...hroom-brk.html

With semi autos a lot of them are retained by pressure on the pistol so my question for all handguns is threefold.....

With revolvers such as this don't you need to be sure it has a retention strap?
Has anyone had one fall out before? This has me worried about my daily carry. Does anyone have any suggestions for daily carry? Like beyond the durhhh dont skip the holster...

I mean I have my pocket auto in a holster and I'm real careful when putting it in and taking it out of my pocket. And I'm always sure to keep the pant pockets up when dropping trow.. When I carry my full size it's in a kydex IWB and I always make sure that it is always open end up, so what am I missing
here?

Please shed some light on this for me as it sounds like he was trying to be careful.
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Old February 21, 2012, 12:19 AM   #2
gnarSKYLER
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Many auto pistols today are designed with safeties in case of falls. As for revolvers, I don't have any experience. But semi auto pistols should be pretty safe in that regard.
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Old February 21, 2012, 12:26 AM   #3
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I bet that is not what happened. That is probably what he told police but he likely pulled the trigger on accident.
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Old February 21, 2012, 12:29 AM   #4
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I was taught when you drop a gun not to try and catch it, but to just let it fall to the floor. The idea is that a properly functioning modern handgun should not fire when dropped, but by attempting to grab it you could inadvertently pull the trigger.

As for holsters they should hold the gun securely utilizing some type of retention system. I have a Milt Sparks VM-II and it is designed to hold my carry gun very securely without a strap. However, some holsters by their design probably do need retention straps. Since he had a ”western Style” revolver I wonder if he might have purchased some sort of generic six gun rig that was not made for his specific gun.
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Old February 21, 2012, 12:34 AM   #5
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1000-1 he was playing with it.

I watched my HK USP Compact bounce down 12 cement stairs after me dropping it, it hit pretty hard several times and never went off.

But.....then again that's a semi.....I don't know much about revolvers.
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Old February 21, 2012, 12:35 AM   #6
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All the Ruger revolvers made for the past few decades are designed so that they will not discharge from being dropped.

Some of the older ones could fire from being dropped, but Ruger will retrofit them with a drop-safety at no charge. This is explained in the manual, and the manual is also available free of charge from Ruger.

The man either lied (discharged his handgun by accident and then claimed he dropped it instead) or he was carrying a gun around that he could have had made drop-safe at no charge. If it's the latter, he was also carrying it in an unsafe manner since it's common knowledge to leave the chamber under the hammer empty if the revolver is not drop-safe.
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Old February 21, 2012, 12:36 AM   #7
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Sounds like he must have had an (unmodified) old model Ruger (or is lying about the circumstances).

Fact is, any gun can accidentally fire, but the odds are vanishingly small if one practices reasonable safety procedures.

That this happened in Arizona surprises me. That someone who owns a single-action revolver (especially a Ruger-the differences between the Old Model vs New Model is widely known) doesn't know to keep the chamber under the hammer empty. I don't know how serious the recommended charges are, but for simple stupidity, I hope they are only proportional to the incident and not overboard. Plus, the sentence should include mandatory training for this idiot.

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Old February 21, 2012, 12:49 AM   #8
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being a ruger revolver, both vaquero and blackhawk models (mostly) have transfer bars, and that handgun CANNOT FIRE unless the hammer was pulled fully to the rear and the transfer bar was in place.

maybe he has an old model. I doubt it. the transfer bar has been in use for 30-40 years now, I think.

I could be wrong. I don't know the exact timeline of designs.

Carrying a SA revolver in a POCKET???????

My thought is that this clod was in the stall, doing what he does best, fiddling around with his gun. The police will know, absolutely, by the bullet path. They are asking for prosecution. I feel that this answers almost any question i have.
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Old February 21, 2012, 05:01 AM   #9
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i had a 1911 (cant remember which one, though im pretty sure it was a series 90) fall out of my shoulder harness when the thumb strap wasn't fully secured. my heart stopped, as a looked down to see it fall, hit the concrete, flip down the stairs (yes just like in the movies) and come to rest at the landing.

nothing happened other than a few scars on the gun, a pounding heart, and a lesson learned (always recheck the security snap).

the 1911 was loaded, cocked and locked
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Old February 21, 2012, 05:29 AM   #10
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I read an article about the inertial pin in the 1911 a long time ago. It concluded that a 1911 was for all practical purposes, impossible to fire except by dropping the hammer. after weighing a standard firing pin, measuring the strength of the spring, and calculating what sort of velocity it would take for that pin to gather enough energy to fire a primer, the thing would have to be thrown out of a high altitude jet and land squarely barrel first on VERY solid concrete before the pin could set off the primer. they're too light, and the hammer strike imparts every bit of energy in an elastic collision.

Same story with any inertial pin. If the hammer is not in direct contact with the pin, and able to transfer forward momentum to it, it's practically impossible to fire a primer by dropping an uncocked gun with an inertial firing pin.

Another argument against his story.
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Old February 21, 2012, 09:29 AM   #11
Ronbert
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Hammer down on a chambered round safety off in a basic 1911 could fire if dropped on the hammer. (same as the old original single action revolvers and some less-than-modern revolvers)

But I go with the others who say the guy was playing with it OR is completely ignorant of how to be safe with his pistol.
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Old February 21, 2012, 09:38 AM   #12
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Quote:
i had a 1911 (cant remember which one, though im pretty sure it was a series 90)
Series 90?
I think Colt used to etch "series 90" on their short-lived Double Eagle pistols which weren't 1911's, but similar... and double action.

If you meant like a 1991, that's a 1911, but a series 80.

Or is there some kind of series 90 that I'm unfamiliar with?
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Old February 21, 2012, 09:50 AM   #13
Jim Watson
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There are people who have posted on this very board that they are comfortable with six in a conventional single action without transfer bar, depending on the quarter cock "safety notch." But I am not one of them.

This guy was:
1. Playing with his revolver in an unlikely place.
or
2. Dropped it such that it went off because:
a. The hammer was in the "safety notch" over a live round and broke out the notch or the trigger sear. (As I said, there are people here who do that.)
or
b. The hammer was all the way down on a live round. (Some people do not know the difference between a floating firing pin and an inertial firing pin.)
or
c. The hammer was all the way down between live rounds and got rolled onto a live round by handling or rubbing in the holster. (That has also been mentioned here as a traditional method.)

If it had a transfer bar action, then he is covering up, see #1 above.
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Old February 21, 2012, 10:00 AM   #14
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Quote:
Series 90?
I think Colt used to etch "series 90" on their short-lived Double Eagle pistols which weren't 1911's, but similar... and double action.

If you meant like a 1991, that's a 1911, but a series 80.

Or is there some kind of series 90 that I'm unfamiliar with?
Colt roll marks the Defender and New Agent as "Series 90".
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Old February 21, 2012, 10:04 AM   #15
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I will sometimes use an open top holster when I carry IWB (one made for that model so it fits properly, NOT some generic holster) but prefer an OWB with a retention strap.
When using the facilities, you can just flip the holster into your pants to keep it from hitting the floor or commode.
He probably had a cheap holster and was worried about it falling out, so he was holdling it. If you plan on carrying you should buy 1 or 2 quality holsters instead of multiple cheapies.

As an anecdote: I was once reading a book about the FBI Behavioral Science Unit and one of the founding agents said he could never figure out what to do with his gun while using the facilities at work, so he used to hang it on the stall hook by the trigger guard! (They were using .38 revolvers at the time)
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Old February 21, 2012, 10:05 AM   #16
jglsprings
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Quote:
JohnKSa

The man either lied (discharged his handgun by accident and then claimed he dropped it instead) or he was carrying a gun around that he could have had made drop-safe at no charge. If it's the latter, he was also carrying it in an unsafe manner since it's common knowledge to leave the chamber under the hammer empty if the revolver is not drop-safe.
That about covers it. I read that article and the first word that jumped to my mind was: LIAR.
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Old February 21, 2012, 10:53 AM   #17
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http://www.kpho.com/story/16978166/g...-mart-bathroom

That man was standing at the urinal when police say 24-year-old Andrew Seals entered a stall wearing a western-style holster and .357-caliber antique revolver

I assume it was a non-ugraded 3 screw Ruger SA. He had no business carrying this weapon.
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Old February 21, 2012, 10:57 AM   #18
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Quote:
I was taught when you drop a gun not to try and catch it, but to just let it fall to the floor.
Yup. Same thing with a knife in the kitchen, don't try to catch it..........you just might succeed and wish you hadn't. It's a natural reaction to try and catch it, but it's not a good idea.
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Old February 21, 2012, 11:08 AM   #19
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CourtTV had a case (when it was CourtTV) of a guy with an older Ruger. Dropped it and shot himself. Sued. The jury was convinced that he should have known the risk and had it modified. Found for Ruger.

Ruger still paid him a chunk of change to prevent any appeals.
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Old February 21, 2012, 11:31 AM   #20
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Taking this guys story at face value and regardless of which mod. Ruger he had(and yes, it's unsafe to carry loaded chamber on a rev. without a transfer bar)... how did the pistol fall out if he had it securely in the holster using a retention strap?
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Old February 21, 2012, 11:55 AM   #21
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If his "Western style" Ruger was an old three screw model that did not have the transfer bar modification, then if he was carrying one under the hammer, and he dropped it on the hammer, the pistol will discharge.

This three screw has the factory installed transfer bar.



This one does not.



You cannot tell until you cock the hammer and look into the mechanism.
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Old February 21, 2012, 11:58 AM   #22
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I've found that the press seldom gets the relevant details in their gun stories.

I really doubt the Ruger hit the floor and just went off but I don't have the facts.

I wish the police departments would examine the weapons in these cases, but I guess it doesn't matter legally whether he pulled the trigger or it fell and went off. It would be nice if they did an investigation and published results like "the weapon did not malfunction, there was no way it could have fired without the trigger being pulled."

There are a lot of gun owners who post about their fear of civil suits if they use this kind or that kind of ammo, or use reloads, or have trigger jobs, etc, etc... it seems to have seeped into the collective consciousness of the shooting community.

Maybe some gun owners need to have their pants sued off for their stupid carry-schemes, including but not limited to Mexican carry, and some people’s insistence that their favorite pistol really is a “pocket pistol”. Until the top-heavy thing falls out of their “pocket”. After a few dozen gun owners get sued for either their NDs or their guns falling out, maybe it will seep into the shooting community’s consciousness how important it is to have a quality holster / retention system for carrying their firearms.
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Old February 21, 2012, 12:04 PM   #23
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Quote:
Hammer down on a chambered round safety off in a basic 1911 could fire if dropped on the hammer.
Nope. The firing pin isn't long enough to rest on the primer in a 1911. If the hammer is down on a chambered round (not a wise idea anyway), no amount of wailing on that hammer is going to get the firing pin to ignite the primer.
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Old February 21, 2012, 12:14 PM   #24
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Well said CountZero.
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Old February 21, 2012, 12:20 PM   #25
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Quote:
Maybe some gun owners need to have their pants sued off for their stupid carry-schemes, including but not limited to Mexican carry, and some people’s insistence that their favorite pistol really is a “pocket pistol”. Until the top-heavy thing falls out of their “pocket”. After a few dozen gun owners get sued for either their NDs or their guns falling out, maybe it will seep into the shooting community’s consciousness how important it is to have a quality holster / retention system for carrying their firearms.
It might change some minds, but really? Suing someone just because their gun fell out of their pocket? For starters, who gets to file the lawsuit? Who's the "injured party"? If Bob drops his gun at a sporting event, can every other spectator at the event sue him individually, or would it be a class-action lawsuit?

I realize I'm being a little flippant, but the reality is that unless an unsafe act actually results in an injury or damage, I don't think that a lawsuit is an appropriate tool.
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