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Old February 24, 2012, 10:44 PM   #51
Jim243
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Like I said try, both and see what works for you.

As long as we are posting targets - this was done at 100 yards (5 shot group) with crimpted 130 grain Hornady SSTs in 270 Win.

Try it both ways.
Jim

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Old February 25, 2012, 12:03 AM   #52
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Quote:
Why would I want to take the most perfect bullets ever made in the history of the human race and turn them into crap?

Early on I stopped using the Lee Factory Crimp die when I found the thing "coke-bottled" my 168 SMK's. I shot those bullets standing, and I cannot prove they made my score worse, or better!
I know, I've seen your pictures in just about every Crimp thread ever run on this forum. Personally I would be embarrassed to post over and over my inability to properly use a reloading tool as simple as the Lee Factory Crimp Die. If you would have used the die as intended and not smashed the hell out of your bullets, your results may have been different. Actually with a crimp that hard I'm surprised you didn't damage the die, or maybe you did. Did you?
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Old February 25, 2012, 12:35 AM   #53
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Then there's those whose bullets are so lightly held in case necks they can be pulled out by hand. And they shoot very accurate. Some benchresters do it and they win matches.

Talked with a guy years ago who ran some tests measuring how much extraction force it took to bullets that and varing amounts of neck tension in uncrimped cases as well as other with varying amounts of crimp. Cases with varying amounts of neck tension had the smallest spread of forces to pull the bullets from each batch. Crimped cases had wider spreads of force required.

One thing often done by military teams shooting match ammo to improve vertical shot stringing at long range. 7.62 and 30 caliber arsenal match ammo has specs for the extraction force to push/pull a bullet out of their case necks. Regular crimped service ammo has about 60 pounds spec'd but for the uncrimped match ammo it has to be at least 20 pounds but I've never measured any with more than 40. The extraction force spread of both is quite a bit. Folks would use a Lyman Nut Cracker tool with a seating die for the cartridge at hand then use it to just barely seat the bullet deeper to break it loose from the asphaltum sealant. Reseated rounds had a much smaller extraction force spread and shot better scores due to a smaller vertical shot spread.

This seems to fly in the face of Lee's belief that increasing a bullet's extraction force (which crimping does) improves anything regarding accuracy.

How many folks have measured the force needed to pull bullets out of case mouths?
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Old February 25, 2012, 12:53 AM   #54
Bart B.
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Slamfire mentions:
Quote:
Not that many M1a's on the firing line anymore.
Except along with 7.62 Garands and AR10s, they've have won all the service rifle long range championships at the Nationals for the last several years. Scores fired with them are higher than rifles shooting 5.56 rounds. The US Army was able to get the AR10 added as a service rifle 'cause they didn't have any decent shooting M14NM's around to compete with.

Oh, forgot to mention....all with uncrimped bullets in their ammo

Last edited by Bart B.; February 25, 2012 at 08:44 AM.
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Old February 25, 2012, 11:03 AM   #55
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Bart, have you ever tried or tested the LFCD in any of your rifles? Or are you just regurgitating others data and results?
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Old February 25, 2012, 05:43 PM   #56
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Yes, Steve, I tried one years ago to test with my .308 match rifle. Borrowed if from a guy. He swore by it.

Tested 40 loads with 4 different amounts of crimp. I gave it back after all four 10-shot groups were around twice the size of my uncrimped handloads. I swore at it.
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Old February 25, 2012, 05:59 PM   #57
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One carry over from my BR days is using bushing die to control neck tension as I don't use any type of expander.

I think we all pick up little things that we consider important in reloading and what may work for some may not work for others.

I was glad to see post of a target using a crimp die and Jim243 that's a pretty nice group.
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Old February 25, 2012, 07:54 PM   #58
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Yes, Steve, I tried one years ago to test with my .308 match rifle. Borrowed if from a guy. He swore by it.

Tested 40 loads with 4 different amounts of crimp. I gave it back after all four 10-shot groups were around twice the size of my uncrimped handloads. I swore at it.
Bart excellent comment. And since you were a member of the Palma Team, that ought to count for something.
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Old February 25, 2012, 10:34 PM   #59
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Bart excellent comment. And since you were a member of the Palma Team, that ought to count for something.
Yes it most certainly does. What are your credentials? Other than your ability over-over crimp with the LFCD.
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Old February 25, 2012, 11:10 PM   #60
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Yes it most certainly does. What are your credentials? Other than your ability over-over crimp with the LFCD.
That is very rude, and you expected an answer after that?
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Old February 26, 2012, 12:35 AM   #61
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Steve, your comment "What are your credentials? Other than your ability over-over crimp with the LFCD." One of them is not making assumptions such as this one you just made public. For all you know and me too, for that matter, maybe I was under-crimping them such that instead of creating a smaller varible in a low extraction force needed to get the bullet out of the case, I was creating a large variable in a greater one. I've seen nobody's numbers as to the extraction force the LFCD has toset up for the bullets. Lee doesn't even mention such stuff.

Enlighten me, maybe I just did it wrong. What extraction force level and tolerance should bullets have?
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Old February 26, 2012, 12:44 AM   #62
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That is very rude, and you expected an answer after that?
Oh? and "Your're doing something pretty attrocious with your hand/re-loading tools and/or processes that's masked by crimping in your bullets." is just a fine and dandy thing to say?
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Old February 26, 2012, 12:55 AM   #63
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every FCD comes with instructions on how to use them. I use crimps on everything I shoot. Also worked for a manufacturing Co. We were required to crimp . Just like everything in life a little is good dosn't mean a whole lot is better.. Not Judging Just saying be careful. After all we all want the same thing . To have the best accuracy and to be safe to enjoy and to share.

Last edited by Caveman4570; February 26, 2012 at 01:01 AM.
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Old February 26, 2012, 01:08 AM   #64
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Quote:
Enlighten me, maybe I just did it wrong. What extraction force level and tolerance should bullets have?
We could go at this for years, multiple people who use the FCD because it gives good results, vs. people who dont use it because match shooters dont use it so it *cant* be any good.

The fact of the matter is, Match shooting using perfect (expensive) bullets, and the kind of shooting most people here do using cheap to mid-range plinking and hunting bullets are two very different animals, obviously.... We dont have the means, even if we had the desire to measure extraction force.

In the end, all that matters to us is what gives us smaller more consistent groups, not what people shooting match bullets out of match rifles we could never hope to own do or dont do...
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Old February 26, 2012, 08:14 AM   #65
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I tried crimping, and using bullets with a cannulure in my Mod 12 Savave LRPV. I also used the same bullets not crimped. I also used some without cannulures as well.

Die used was an RCBS .223 Rem for crimping. I also backed it off to seat without crimping. The other die used was Lee Dead Length seating die. It does not crimp at all.

Results were that the uncrimped rounds regardless of die used grouped under .5 MOA for 10 groups of each shot. The crimped rounds grouped and average of .95 MOA with the smallest of 10 groups being .85 MOA.

YMMV.

My testing was for my purpouses. I do not compete, I punch holes in paper. I handle the occasional predatory varmint for friends. I do no like to miss, and very seldom in life have I ever missed on a shot.

When it is all said and done. Use what works for you.
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Old February 26, 2012, 09:38 AM   #66
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Quote:
Die used was an RCBS .223 Rem for crimping. I also backed it off to seat without crimping. The other die used was Lee Dead Length seating die. It does not crimp at all.

Results were that the uncrimped rounds regardless of die used grouped under .5 MOA for 10 groups of each shot. The crimped rounds grouped and average of .95 MOA with the smallest of 10 groups being .85 MOA.
I too have tested rounds crimped with the seating die. My results were worse than yours. Crimping with the seating die was a no go for me. The LFCD however is GTG in my semi-autos, helps secure the bullet and increases accuracy. YMMV
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Old February 26, 2012, 10:48 AM   #67
m&p45acp10+1
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To keep it fair all brass was uniformly trimmed, and seating and crimping were done in seperate steps.

I shoot mine from a very heavy bolt action, with hot loads it barely moves when fired. I am not worried about rounds backing out. Neck tension in all of my rounds is quite suficient. I have loaded for several friend's AR platform rifles. Ronds that chambered with full force were extracted and measured to see if the bullets pulled out any from slamming to a stop in the chamber. None of the bullets backed out, or were pushed in.

Though if you get better groups crimping your rounds then by all means crimp them. Go with what works best in your gun.
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Old February 26, 2012, 11:50 AM   #68
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I don't crimp, but then again I don't load many bullets that have the cannelure to crimp into. I'm not against crimping, just that I get acceptable accuracy from neck tension on HPBT bullets.

The one rifle I have that could benefit from crimping is my 308 Saiga, that action cycles with enough force to unseat the bullets. Nothing like having a misfire and cycling the action back and having a loose bullet and powder fly everywhere. A couple years back I saw some pics of a firefight between two cartels down in Mexico, and there were AK bullets just laying on the ground, obviously not having been fired, the brass from the fired bullets showed that they weren't using milspec steel cased stuff, and the obvious answer is that the AKs were having malfunctions and the thugs were clearing malfunctions and leaving emptied brass, bullets, and powder on the ground.

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Old February 26, 2012, 03:23 PM   #69
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Crimping with the seating die is very different from crimping with a FCD. The whole reason the Lee FCD was developed was because crimping with the seating die often gives unsatisfactory results.
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Old February 26, 2012, 03:51 PM   #70
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Crimping with the seating die is very different from crimping with a FCD. The whole reason the Lee FCD was developed was because crimping with the seating die often gives unsatisfactory results.
Yup, and the LFCD delivers more than satisfactory results.
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Old February 26, 2012, 08:54 PM   #71
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"When it is all said and done."

... there's usually a lot more that's been said than that's been done!

So crimp for tube magazines like the M 94 Winchester and 1895 Marlin lever guns, heavy recoiling rifles, maybe autoloaders, and it's loader's choice for anything else? Man am I glad that's all settled....
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Old February 26, 2012, 10:55 PM   #72
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So if a bullet has a cannelur (like the Hornady Interlock 162 BTSP for 7mm Rem Mag), does that mean I should crimp that load
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Old February 26, 2012, 11:09 PM   #73
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normaly yes, as long as your bullet is cartrige specific.

On bullets like hornadys sst and interlock which are not cartrige specific, what looks like a cannelure is actualy an "interlock ring", put there to help hold the jacket to the core, and trying to crimp into that groove can give too short cartridges... You should ignore it when loading.
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Old February 26, 2012, 11:19 PM   #74
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So if a bullet has a cannelur (like the Hornady Interlock 162 BTSP for 7mm Rem Mag), does that mean I should crimp that load
Personal preference, try it both ways. Seating so the cannelure lines up with the case mouth is not required either.
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