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Old February 20, 2012, 01:41 PM   #1
tpcollins
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Anyone crimp rifle rounds?

My Lee .40 S&W and .380 Auto dies seat and crimp in one operation but not for my Lee .204 and .243 - neck tension only. But I see "factory crimp" dies offered and was wondering if they are really necessary? Are all factory rifle rounds crimped? Both of my rifles are bolt action and I'm wondering what the difference I would see if I crimp either one? Thanks.
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Old February 20, 2012, 02:34 PM   #2
savagelover
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if your reloading,you should be using a bullet with a cannaler(speiiling)
I think all factory ammo as some type of crimp..May reason being so the bullets don't move due to recoli and or rough handling..The Lee did you mention is no really need..Like I said,unless you have a heavy recoiling rifle..Hope this helps,I am no good at telling how with a type written text..
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Old February 20, 2012, 03:30 PM   #3
m&p45acp10+1
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I have never used a crimp on rifle round that go into a bolt action rifle. Nor have I ever crimped a .223 round that was ging into an AR. I have never had the need to. They hold just fine with neck tension.

I have 3 sets of rifle dies that allow for a crimp if the reloader wants to. I tested crimped rounds, against uncrimped rounds. The uncrimped gave more consitint groups. That has been my experienc. YMMV
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Old February 20, 2012, 09:43 PM   #4
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Generally, the only rifle round which need crimping are extremely heavy kickers and those which feed from a tubular magazine, such as a Winchester M94. Many times, factory ammo is crimped because the type of firearm it's being used in is unknown.

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Old February 20, 2012, 10:05 PM   #5
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Same for me. I generally crimp only for my tube fed rifles.

Whooops, an alibi if you will allow it. I do crimp heavily for my black powder loads in my original 45/70 single shot US Army Trapdoor rifle and the earlier 1870 US Navy Rolling Block rifle in 50/70. Black powder seems to perform best with a heavy crimp, and of course a compressed powder charge and magnum primers.
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Old February 20, 2012, 11:24 PM   #6
dacaur
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I crimp my .308 loads with the lee factory crimp die. Lee claims it will increase accuracy and I have no reason to doubt it... Ive never actualy seen a post where someone says they have tried it and it didnt help with accuracy, though there are plenty of people who have NOT tried it that diss the FCD......

I have not tried working up a load without it, but with it my savage edge gives me the occasional 1/2moa group, with sub MOA being the norm..... I use the FCD for 30-30 too.... dont load any other rifle rounds yet, but any I do load, I will use the FCD...
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Old February 21, 2012, 01:49 AM   #7
MR-7-45
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I have some Barnes bullets where their reload manual recommends a light crimp. So yes, I do crimp in some cases.
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Old February 21, 2012, 03:40 AM   #8
FrankenMauser
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I don't crimp any rifle ammo, except for my .444 Marlin shot shells.

I might decide to do so with something like .375 H&H or .375 Ruger, and up; but my cartridges (.223 Rem to .35 Whelen/.444 Marlin) don't really need it.

I have used factory crimp dies on a few cartridges, and consider them to be a gimmick to sell dies (rifle), or a bandaid to cover for bad reloading tools or technique (pistol).

Quote:
I crimp my .308 loads with the lee factory crimp die. Lee claims it will increase accuracy and I have no reason to doubt it... Ive never actualy seen a post where someone says they have tried it and it didnt help with accuracy, though there are plenty of people who have NOT tried it that diss the FCD......
Challenge accepted.
The test will be performed with 140 gr Nosler Partitions in .270 Winchester, being shot out of a Ruger M77 Mk II Sporter (SS/Laminate) topped with a Leupold Vari-X 3 3.5-10x40mm;
Or... the test will be performed with 165 gr Remington Core-Lokts in a .30-06 Marlin XL7 topped with a Redfield Revolution 3-9x40mm . (The Bushnell 4200 Elite was crap. I had to swap it for the Redfield.)

Either load is know-good (less than half MoA for both, actually). Minor tweaking will be expected, to get optimum accuracy out of the crimped version. We'll see what happens. I'll be honest about the data.
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Old February 21, 2012, 04:34 AM   #9
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I don't know if it helps accuracy, but lee collet crimp dies are the best to use if you are going to crimp. I agree with the others only use it for tube feed rifles or if doing compressed loads. Had bullets back out on compressed loads.
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Old February 21, 2012, 09:41 AM   #10
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Crimping is a must for Revolver ammo too !
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Old February 21, 2012, 07:31 PM   #11
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Quote:
Challenge accepted. ..... We'll see what happens. I'll be honest about the data.
Cool, looking forward to seeing your results .
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Old February 21, 2012, 08:37 PM   #12
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The proper way to test "crimp vs No-Crimp" is to work up the loads as if you were starting from scratch. Record all the groups in the load work up and compare.
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Old February 22, 2012, 03:54 PM   #13
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I also didn't crimp my RIFLE loads until I started loading for an AR10 in 308

I didn't do the lee factory crimp For safety issues since according to many comments on this type of RIFLE it wasn't necessary.
I'm a big fan of Berger bullets and I couldn't use them on this semiauto RIFLE and I started to do different things and I came up to find out that by doing the factory lee crimp now I didn't have to worry about jumping or not jumping the bullets.

I did found out that some bullets don't like this crimp and some do .

This is one example
Sorry but I didn't edited the pictures as to which is crimp and with is not, but my test result was that berger hornady A-MAX and NOSLER PARTITION do like the crimp WITH VIHT.N-140
BUT WITH IMR 4064 ONLY BERGER LIKES IT (IMR 4064 IS NOT IN THIS PICTURE

YOU CAN TELL THE DIFFERENT GROUPING THAT DOING THE LEE CRIMP WENT FROM 1.60 TO ALMOST .40 SUB MOA
CONSIDERING THAT THIS IS A SEMIAUTO RIFLE THIS .40 IS PRETTY GOOD.






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Old February 22, 2012, 04:54 PM   #14
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.. the test will be performed with 165 gr Remington Core-Lokts in a .30-06 Marlin XL7 topped with a Redfield Revolution 3-9x40mm . (The Bushnell 4200 Elite was crap. I had to swap it for the Redfield.


I'd like to see this one.
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Old February 22, 2012, 05:28 PM   #15
Goldy
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I got a Lee FCD in a bunch of reloading stuff I bought. Since it wa in 30-06 and I have been working on a load for my Savage, I took a box of 20 and crimped half of them. Then I shot three 3 shot groups of each.

The best uncrimped group was worse than the worst crimped group. An average showed the crimp was good for around 0.20". Not much of a sample but good enough that now I crimp all match loads.
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Old February 22, 2012, 09:00 PM   #16
tpcollins
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Quote:
Goldy-The best uncrimped group was worse than the worst crimped group. An average showed the crimp was good for around 0.20". Not much of a sample but good enough that now I crimp all match loads.
Well that's interesting - I think I can get a FCD rather cheap - I would think a "little crimp" might be ok versus something that digs into the bullet rather deep.
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Old February 22, 2012, 09:47 PM   #17
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FS Reloading has the Lee FCDs for $10 each, they also come in the rifle die stes if you pick up a new chambering.
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Old February 22, 2012, 10:09 PM   #18
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I don't crimp my rifle rounds that are going in a bolt gun but do all of my semi and lever rounds. This includes 30 carbine, 223, 308 , 30/30 and 30/06
varying the amount of crimp you put in a case might have some affect on accuracy and I would imagine pressure as well.
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Old February 22, 2012, 10:18 PM   #19
chris in va
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I crimp my '06 and 223's. Did it before learning it increases accuracy.
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Old February 22, 2012, 11:40 PM   #20
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I tested the FCD a few years ago working with a Grendel upper and found it had little or no effect on accuracy.

Recently I've been working up a load for a new Stag 3G upper and have found that a very light crimp with the FCD does improve accuracy at 100 yards, similar to what Goldy reported (77 grain SMK, 23.7 grains TAC with matched brass). I have not yet been able to take it out to longer distances to see if accuracy worsens at range.

My experience is for AR use only and my understanding is that neck turning brass is a waste of time for an AR. I can speculate that the FCD makes neck tension more consistent in what otherwise is likely pretty variable neck tension (assuming no neck turning). And considering how the rifle FCD works, it seems reasonable to think that it will make the bullet seating more concentric.

I've also noticed that even a light application of the FCD increases OAL about 0.0015. I'm pulling that number from memory so take it with a grain of salt.
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Old February 23, 2012, 01:38 AM   #21
steve4102
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An accuracy test, LFCD vs No LFCD. Note the increase in accuracy.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html
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Old February 23, 2012, 02:03 AM   #22
FrankenMauser
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Quote:
An accuracy test, LFCD vs No LFCD. Note the increase in accuracy.
It's good to see some data, but only the .223 Rem load showed real improvement.

The other results showed (in my opinion), nothing definitive.

Thanks for the link.
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Old February 23, 2012, 07:56 AM   #23
steve4102
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Quote:
It's good to see some data, but only the .223 Rem load showed real improvement.

The other results showed (in my opinion), nothing definitive.
True, but it did show some improvement, not the complete breakdown of accuracy claimed by Speer and those handloaders that have never even tried the LFCD.
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Old February 23, 2012, 04:27 PM   #24
thedaddycat
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Interesting article, the data does show some marginal improvement with the crimp. All these groups are well inside of the accuracy I'm able to achieve with my eyes and my rifles. However, the sample is only five groups of five shots and this data is over thirteen years old. I think that a larger sample would yield more accurate results. I also wonder if the improvements in materials and processes over the last decade plus would yield lower numbers for ES and SD.
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Old February 23, 2012, 05:53 PM   #25
wingman
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I never crimped rifle rounds however recently I have tried it with my AR
and it does improve accuracy in my rifle,very light crimp with lee fcd.
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