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Old February 18, 2012, 10:15 AM   #26
OldMarksman
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Posted by BleedinPurple: needs to work on shot placement...there is no reason you should hit a guy 4 times and none of them are incapacitating...
That indicates two all too common misconceptions:
  1. That 'shot placement' of the kind that one sees at a target range is at all achievable in a defensive encounter involving the need to get several shots into a fast moving target very rapidly at a rate of several shots per second. A session of high performance defensive pistol training with experienced instructors will correct that misconception even without someone shooting at the defender.
  2. That pistol bullets should be expected to incapacitate effectively and rapidly. That idea may come from seeing too much television, or from confusing the violence of the flash and the boom and commotion in the shooter's hand with the likely effect on a human target.

As Bartholomew Roberts said, "Anybody who thinks that their firearm is a death ray is going to be surprised at the way the robber not only moves very quickly; but keeps moving and shoots back. They later found him collapsed about a block away from the store; but during the confrontation on video, he shows no signs he has been hit repeatedly".

Again, some good training will likely correct some false expectations.
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Old February 18, 2012, 10:25 AM   #27
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Thinking and upgrade to fireams is coming..

most likely a auto loading 20ga??

Only suggestion would be to isolate the cashier position as a refuge.

He survived but was lucky.
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Old February 18, 2012, 09:13 PM   #28
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Posted by BleedinPurple: needs to work on shot placement...there is no reason you should hit a guy 4 times and none of them are incapacitating...
Hey, Purpleman, didn't you see the video?

The target was sprinting with his weapon (which he also fired) pointed at the store owner. The good guy put two rds. into his torso using a shooting technique that was reasonably sound under the circumstances.

If you'd ever seen participants using simunitions dancing, dodging, and ducking, and forgetting to shoot back (because they're anticipating being hit by non lethal ammo?, then you might give the store owner, who stood his ground in the face of real bullets, a little break here.

His error was tactical, since he didn't shoot when Bubba was standing there with a gun in his hand representing all the threat (if not more) necessary for the use of deadly force.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
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Old February 18, 2012, 10:56 PM   #29
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"Ozier suffered four gunshot wounds to his chest, abdomen, leg and arm."
Not bad shooting in my book. I bet he jerked the first shot low, into the leg.. and notice Hahn used both hands to shoot.

Also notice he did not 'move and shoot' while the bad guy DID 'move and shoot' and missed while getting hit four times!

So this moving and shooting at the same time stuff might not always be the best idea.

Sadly as it says later, "This is the same store where the original owner was killed by a robber in 1994. " The area must be prone to robberies.

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Old February 19, 2012, 12:32 PM   #30
Bartholomew Roberts
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So this moving and shooting at the same time stuff might not always be the best idea.
I think HOW you move is relevant. Had the robber moved to cover, he might not have been shot four times. As it was, the robber did not seek cover and chose to close the distance while presenting a zero deflection target. Probably not the best choice of moving and shooting available to him.
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Old February 19, 2012, 12:45 PM   #31
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jimbob86. Quote.


3) I did not see any mention of the caliber used or if they were personal defense type loads- 4 hits (only one to the chest) with 9mm fmj target ammo might hurt like hell, but unless a major artery, the heart, brain or spine is hit directly, it's not likely to be incapacitating anytime soon .....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would the same go for .40 .45 ect. ?
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Old February 19, 2012, 01:10 PM   #32
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I am glad the store owner made out ok,however someone has to explain better tactics.Too much of his body was needlessly exposed.
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Old February 19, 2012, 01:46 PM   #33
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Is the incident not a good argument for high cap mags. Stopping to reload in a situation like that would be fatal.
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Old February 19, 2012, 05:08 PM   #34
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Is the incident not a good argument for high cap mags. Stopping to reload in a situation like that would be fatal.
Bigger heavier bullets might make a difference too, then you wouldn't need so many of them. As it was that store owner was cool and had a higher hit percentage than most people do in a shootout. Just because the target is close doesn't mean you can pinpoint your shots because it all happens right now.

Only time I ever saw a long drawn out gun fight was on TV. The one in Olongapo happened 50' from me and by the time I registered shots being fired it was over. In Chicago it was the same thing. 3 shots fired one man down and the other long gone from the scene by the time we all showed by the guy who was down. In Washington DC I never saw the shooter, just heard 3 shots and then the streets were empty and I do mean empty. Never saw a cop, don't know if anybody even called them. 5 minutes later street traffic was back to normal and nobody even mentioned the shots. So much for gun free cities.
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Old February 19, 2012, 06:08 PM   #35
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Roberts,

It was not a zero deflection shot. It was a 70 to 90 degree deflection (right angles) shot.

And that is the hardest way to shoot at someone.

His real fault was trying to shoot (and just miss) while running by the attendant. And of course shooting one handed while moving is difficult at best, and really hard when you are getting hit from stem to stern in the process.

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Old February 19, 2012, 06:33 PM   #36
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jimbob86. Quote.


3) I did not see any mention of the caliber used or if they were personal defense type loads- 4 hits (only one to the chest) with 9mm fmj target ammo might hurt like hell, but unless a major artery, the heart, brain or spine is hit directly, it's not likely to be incapacitating anytime soon .....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would the same go for .40 .45 ect. ?
Low velocity, FMJ bullets are the worst choice in any caliber ..... but a bigger bullet of poor design would be better than a smaller one of the same design, if that's what you are asking.

More energy and a bigger wound diameter would stop an assailant quicker than less energy and a smaller wound diameter, placement being equal.

Hollow points at max velocities are better than FMJ at minimum..... but it's still a handgun and therefore underpowered.
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Old February 19, 2012, 09:22 PM   #37
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4 hits on a moving target (2 of them torso hits) while being shot at from close range is pretty good shooting. It's not very realistic to expect to do much better than that in a dynamic, real-world situation.
I agree. Also, this BG picked a bad time to use his testosterone to decide his actions. It isn't a coincidence in my book that the BG missed all of his shots while being hit 4 times. I also have to give credit to the man for coming to the defense of his friend, partner, and/or employee. He put his life on the line for another human being(not a store or money but another human being). Of course there is no way to know what would've happened if he stayed in the back. I bet he knew some people where that ended bad not to mention what happened to another employee at the same store in the early 1990's though.
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Old February 19, 2012, 09:22 PM   #38
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Someone claiming to be cousin to one of the thugs is commenting on the article and telling the world about the injustice of it all. Good times.

Noteworthy that the guy who killed the previous owner was convicted and sentenced to death in 1994. He is still on death row.

I think this result is more satisfactory. Certainly cheaper and better.
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Old February 19, 2012, 09:24 PM   #39
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good point ^

it is bothersome also if this nitwit isn't charged with attempted murder! we all know what would've happened if that 'soda' shot had terminated the life of the good guy...
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Old February 19, 2012, 09:50 PM   #40
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I do think its important that states pass laws that forbid the assailants and or their families from filing a civil suit when there is a lawful DGU.

No matter how brutal the assailants are, no matter what heinous crimes they committed in the past or were in the process of committing, there is always someone who will get on the evening news and wail and cry "mah baby ! He shot mah baby !" Claims of vigilantism. Friends and relatives of the assailants will get on TV and claim he was gunned down in cold blood, and of the defender they will say “they took matters into their own hands.”

I don’t think it’s good tactics to yell “freeze” And in this case where the store owner did just that and everything is on tape, it didn’t stop the relatives of the assailants from starting their chirping anyway… all he did was put himself at risk.
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Old February 19, 2012, 11:45 PM   #41
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So this moving and shooting at the same time stuff might not always be the best idea.
Don't think he was doing that. He was making for the door and just popped of a shot (don't know how many) as he was completely focused on escape. I think moving and shooting can be effective as long as you don't forget to focus on the shooting part.

At one time moving while shooting was all the rage in shooting courses. Not so much now.

I do have to admit that Gabe Suarez does an impressive job shooting on the move, but he's moving laterally. With a little practice, you can keep the gun on target before you go buy it, while you're going by, and after you've gone by. Two hands from left to right, and one handed right to left.

Moving right at the target can be very aggressive and extremely intimidating. It might have it's applications, though moving toward incoming fire isn't one of them!

Last edited by Nnobby45; February 19, 2012 at 11:57 PM.
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Old February 20, 2012, 12:00 AM   #42
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it is bothersome also if this nitwit isn't charged with attempted murder! we all know what would've happened if that 'soda' shot had terminated the life of the good guy...
"But ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client was just trying to get out the door and was being shot at. He fired to protect his life."

Anybody else see that one coming?
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Old February 20, 2012, 12:23 AM   #43
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No one talked about the tactics of the robber Michael Ozier. Rushing at his opponent gun blazing didn't seem to work out too well for him.

I'm definately glad that the clerk and the store owner Wes Hahn were uninjured. Aside from putting his hands up and surrendering, it probably would have been better for Ozier to try to seek concealment from which to fire from. Maybe there really isn't any cover in a narrow store like that. It seems to me that the bullets were going to zip right through coolers, six packs of beer and displays of beef jerky. But charging right at Hahn didn't work so well, he's lucky to be alive.

Is Hahn standing in the doorway to his back office?

Maybe another tactic would have been to not completly leave his office, he would have at least have had a door jam to be partially behind.
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Old February 20, 2012, 01:36 AM   #44
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Don't think he was doing that. He was making for the door and just popped of a shot (don't know how many) as he was completely focused on escape. I think moving and shooting can be effective as long as you don't forget to focus on the shooting part.
In my opinion and/or take of the video, it seemed that the bad guy purposely took a shot as he was directly passing the good guy while in very close proximity.
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Old February 20, 2012, 01:59 AM   #45
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needs to work on shot placement...there is no reason you should hit a guy 4 times and none of them are incapacitating...
Not only did he score 4 hits on a moving target, but they were decent hits. I think he did quite well.


Not to mention....
You never know what, exactly, will be incapacitating.
Based on my experience with big game, small game, upland game, and any other living creatures I've shot; I can tell you that every animal is different. By "every animal", I mean each individual, not just each species.

Sometimes, the refusal to die is due to physiology. Other times, it's just that that particular individual has an incredible amount of fight left in them.

There is no guarantee that ANY shot will be effective.
Even head shots can fail.
Center of Mass? Hah! That's like shooting at the general area of the front end of a car, and thinking that a single shot can stop the engine instantly. You might get lucky; but, generally, it just doesn't happen.
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Old February 20, 2012, 08:23 AM   #46
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I heartily agree with the above poster. I have noticed that when someone is shoot who is not expecting it they seem to become incapacitated much faster than someone who is expecting it, or amped up for some other reason.

4 for 4 on a moving target is as good as it gets. We would all like the bad guy to stop as soon as possible but that might be the best you can hope for.
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Old February 20, 2012, 08:56 AM   #47
Bartholomew Roberts
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Originally Posted by Deaf Smith
Roberts,

It was not a zero deflection shot. It was a 70 to 90 degree deflection (right angles) shot.
The robber was charging down a long aisle towards the store owner standing at the side on the end of the aisle. Initially, that is going to be a very low deflection shot, meaning that movement won't help you much. As he gets closer, the deflection increases but the distance decreases. As moving and shooting goes, I think there was probably more useful choices the robber could have made tactically.

However, if I had decided I was going to run right at and then past the storeowner towards that exit while he shot at me, I would definitely be moving and shooting.
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Old February 20, 2012, 08:59 AM   #48
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Frank has it right. My son shot two deer this year with a 30.06 and hit both of them in exactly the same spot. Both weighed within 5 lbs of each other were the same weight and age. One ran 20 feet and the other ran 400 yards.
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Old February 20, 2012, 09:58 AM   #49
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This is reality. It doesn't always work out the way it does at IDPA when lives aren't at stake and no one is shooting back.
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Old February 20, 2012, 07:40 PM   #50
Deaf Smith
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I think moving and shooting can be effective as long as you don't forget to focus on the shooting part.
Hard to focus on shooting after being shot in leg, abdomen, and chest.

And that's the main part. FOF uses simulation guns (and I've been in TWO FOF classes were we used them.) But simulation guns don't feel like 9mm slugs. Do note, while I've been shot with simulation guns and airspofts, I've never been shot with a 9mm! but I still would rather be shot with the simulations!!!

I have no doubt the accurate incoming fire made a big difference in the bad guys return fire.


Quote:
This is reality. It doesn't always work out the way it does at IDPA when lives aren't at stake and no one is shooting back.
Exactly. Or in FOF.

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