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Old February 16, 2012, 11:22 PM   #26
MJN77
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Wonder if any of those others is cochise
Cochise had been dead for twelve years when these pics were taken, so I hope not.

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Geronimo was known to carry a single action army he had gotten off a soldier. Supposedly it was chambered in 44-40 like bis winchester.
Look at the pics I posted of Geronimo's gun rig. His revolver was a nickle plated, 5 1/2 bbl .45 Colt SAA with Ivory grips. A soldier would've had a blue, 7 1/2 bbl .45 Colt. He probably got his Colt from the same place he got his gun belt, Mexico.

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What i dont get is if the native americans couldnt speak english how did they read on the cartridge to see what caliber it was?
Some could, and some could speak spanish (Geronimo).

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Old February 16, 2012, 11:28 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by MJN77 View Post
That is the point. At a distance, the .45-70 springfields were the better rifle. More range, and killing power. But at close range,(less then 150 yards) such as the fight with Custer's group (described as a "running gunfight) and with Reno in the river bottom, and his retreat to the bluffs, the rapid, almost point blank (and in some cases just a few feet) firepower of the repeating rifles (Henry, Winchester, Spencer) were much more effective than the single shot carbines of the 7th cavalry. The Henry and 1866 Winchester rifle held 16 rounds, the 1866 carbine held 12. The 1873 Winchester rifle held 13 , the carbine 10. The only reason Reno's command survived is because Reno was smart (or panicked, depending on source) enough to retreat up to the top of the bluff on the other side of the river. If he had stayed in the timber were he took cover after the failed charge into the villiage, he would've been surrounded and wiped out, as was Custer. The 1873 Springfield carbine/rifle was meant to be used to engage the enemy at long range, not from ten feet. But this is way off topic.
The indians were smart. They would send in a few braves and the soldiers would shoot. Right after shooting the indians would send en another wave with repeaters to wipe em out while reloading. I dont think he had one around but if ole custer had a gatlin gun with a couple thousand rounds of ammo the indians wouldnt have had a chance.
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Old February 16, 2012, 11:29 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by MJN77 View Post
Cochise had been dead for twelve years when these pics were taken, so I hope not.
I thought he had been but wasnt sure.
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Old February 18, 2012, 11:49 AM   #29
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the picture came from a book "firearms" published by Salamander by Major F Myatt.
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Old February 20, 2012, 03:03 PM   #30
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Speaking of posed photos, here's one of my great grandfather's brother in law. The closest he ever got to the ocean was Lake Huron.



He hadn't been born when the CSS Virginia sunk the USS Cumberland. But he looks salty enough!
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Old February 20, 2012, 09:03 PM   #31
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Wow You could have snookered me with that one.. If I would have seen that in a Garage Sale / Auction I would have thought that to be real..

That guy has the look of just getting off a ship, If not just back from battle... Cool you knowing who that is..

Mucho thanks for sharing
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Old February 21, 2012, 11:46 AM   #32
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There are several pictures of Geronimo where prop guns were used. Mainly for "health" reasons of those on the other end of the camera. The general idea was to show a fierce enemy, not to have a live action photo.
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Old February 21, 2012, 12:09 PM   #33
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The picture where he is standing is, my understanding, just after he surrendered to Cook and just before he escaped. The one where he is on horseback is, my understanding, the only known photo of him free and in a state of war with the United States. Some photos of his sidearms:

http://www.nativestock.com/famain.as...&imageid=14503

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/ind...topic=28287.25

Who is he? A good demonstration of the power of courage and determination.

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Old February 21, 2012, 12:24 PM   #34
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?? He is Goyathlay, medicine man to Natchez, who was a son of Cochise. The Mexicans named him Jerome, not his parents. He tricked, lied to, and even abducted his comrades at times, to go raiding in Arizona and Mexico. He was a brave man who was legitimately wronged when Mexican troops wiped out his family but it's also true that after he avenged their deaths he raided to get ponies, mules, food and mescal
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Old February 21, 2012, 01:41 PM   #35
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The picture where he is standing is, my understanding, just after he surrendered to Cook and just before he escaped. The one where he is on horseback is, my understanding, the only known photo of him free and in a state of war with the United States
You will notice that in both pics you mention, Geronimo is wearing the exact same clothes. They were taken at the same time when Geronimo was talking about surrendering to the U.S. Army. C.S Fly took several pictures at the same time.
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Old February 21, 2012, 06:25 PM   #36
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You will notice that in both pics you mention, Geronimo is wearing the exact same clothes.
How many sets of clothes did an Indian have?
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Old February 21, 2012, 09:18 PM   #37
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Hawg, do a google image search for Geronimo and then you tell me. There are a LOT of photos of the old fellow. This is the only set of pics where Geronimo is wearing that coat.

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Old February 22, 2012, 05:08 PM   #38
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Don't laugh, but what is the stick in Geronimo's hand? It isn't a ramrod, right? It doesn't really look like an arrow; is it a riding crop or something? It would be one heck of a long peace pipe.
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Old February 24, 2012, 05:59 PM   #39
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Are you sure those were 1866's...looks like could have been 1873's ...who knows.
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Old February 26, 2012, 10:12 AM   #40
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GERONIMO

Named after st jerome

CUSTERS GUN AT LIL BIG HORN WAS A BRITISH BULLDOG NOT COLT
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Old February 26, 2012, 08:35 PM   #41
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CUSTERS GUN AT LIL BIG HORN WAS A BRITISH BULLDOG NOT COLT
That's not positively known. There is that theory because there was a bulldog missing from his collection.
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Old February 26, 2012, 09:12 PM   #42
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Yes, we are so thankful that they kept Geronimo's firearms so there is no arguments there.. As per Custer.. Not so lucky. The best swag is he did have two pistols...

Over the years I have heard of Several Possible stories..

--Really he was given a Galand & Sommerville Like his brother Tom

--He carried a given Webley RIC and purchased another

--He was given a set of RICs while poor Tom was given one Galand & Sommerville..

--And then the best of all worlds has to be he carried his Webley RIC (which was missing or a gun that looked like it) and then his new Colt 45 SAA.. I like that one the best it has such a cover all bases. A fancy RIC to stand out as a command officer and then an new Colt SAA which he can get ammo in the field for..

And there are more but these are the ones always seemed to have to stand out with some logical arguments behind them..
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Old February 26, 2012, 09:14 PM   #43
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REPLY

2nd: General Custer carried a Remington Sporting rifle, octagonal barrel; two Bulldog selfcocking, English, white-handled pistols, with a ring in the butt for a lanyard; a hunting knife, in a beaded fringed scabbard; and a canvas cartridge belt. He wore a whitish gray hat, with broad brim and rather low crown, very similar to the Cowboy hat; buck skin suit, with a fringed welt in outer seams of trousers and arms of blouse; the blouse with double-breasted military buttons, lapels generally open; turn-down collar, and fringe on bottom of shirt. [Note: Here is Peter Thompson's decription of Custer's appearance just before the Custer fight began. Thompson was the last Seventh Cavalry trooper to see Custer alive.]
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Old February 26, 2012, 09:21 PM   #44
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Then why can't the experts agree on what he carried?
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Old February 26, 2012, 09:56 PM   #45
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No one knows for sure what revolvers Custer was armed with at the Little Bighorn. I have heard that he was carrying a pair Webleys, or Colts, or S&W Schofields, or Remingtons. Even survivors of the battle tell different versions of the same thing. Most memoirs were written decades after the fact, and memories can become a "little fuzzy". Even after just a few years. With all the chaos and terror that the survivor experienced, remembering little details about who was armed with what would be a real task for some.

[QUOTE][[Note: Here is Peter Thompson's decription of Custer's appearance just before the Custer fight began. Thompson was the last Seventh Cavalry trooper to see Custer alive.] /QUOTE]

P.S. John Martin (Giovani Martini) was the last trooper to see Custer alive. Martin was the man Custer sent to Reno with the "Be quick. Big villiage. Bring packs. P.S. Bring packs" message.

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Old February 27, 2012, 12:39 AM   #46
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Regarding the Gatling Gun

I believe that I have read that Custer declined the use of two gatling guns, believing that they would slow his troops in the field.

That decision certainly didn't work out well... with any luck at all they might have slowed him enough to miss the battle at Little Bighorn altogether.
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Old February 27, 2012, 02:07 AM   #47
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Yes there is nothing but conflicting Stories on his guns..

You have have Lt Edward Godfrey giving the description about the white handled English bulldogs. And where as that description was made in a time frame very close to the actual battle. The only White handled guns Custer owned (that any one remembers that is ) was a set of Smith & Wessons number 2 pistols.. The RIC that Custer had was not white handled (again that any one remembers).. Peter Thompson's account was written sometime in he early 1910s.. And there are many aspects of his account are not accepted But he was a medal of honor winner. That should cut him some slack.


Another good argument, is to find what were The model of the Gatling guns that Custer turned down. Seems like there are not any concrete records to the model number.


General Terry ended up bringing the Gatlings to the battle of the little Big horn. And Ferrari you are right, Terry was slowed down by the Gatling gun division and was late to the battle because of them.. Maybe Custer would have been saved by taking them and missing the LBH.. Wow .... never thought of it that way.. They would have slowed Custer down and maybe he would have reached the Indians on a more advantages battlefield with Terry Near by. Now that makes you think..
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Old February 28, 2012, 12:34 PM   #48
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With regards to Custer's guns he was a General (though perhaps not a good one), his rank would have allowed him to carry whatever he wanted in addition to regular issue.
I blew up Geronimo's picture and I think he is actually carrying two sticks. I think they are to make a rifle rest for his 45-70. He must have seen buffalo hunters do it.
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Old February 28, 2012, 12:58 PM   #49
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Even survivors of the battle tell different versions of the same thing.
Survivors from the Battle of Little Big Horn?
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Old February 28, 2012, 02:21 PM   #50
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Even survivors of the battle tell different versions of the same thing.

Survivors from the Battle of Little Big Horn?
Yes. There were survivors of the LBH, just not Custer's group. Custer split his command of about 600 troops into three groups, under himself, Major Marcus Reno, and Captain Fredrick Benteen. The only troops wiped out were the 250 or so troopers with "Ol' Longhair" himself. Some of those under Reno/Benteen were killed too, just not all of them.
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